Forgetting everything but the fact an innocent baby has died

[UnexpectedButExpected]

AIBU to feel unbelievably sad that Shamima Bergum’s baby has died.

The poor mite simply didn’t have a chance in the world he was born in to.

If it's offensive to you, maybe you should distance yourself from it?

This baby died due to bollocks, populist politics.

She still is a British Citizen. Her baby was. She does not have Bangladeshi citizenship and never did. You cannot make someone stateless.

That baby's blood is on our hands.

We need to own that and stop tying knots to salve people's consciences.

It wouldn’t be the role of the school to directly assess these girls

It’s the role of the school to spot signs and know what is going on with their pupils. That’s what I meant by asses. Schools assess safeguarding risks all the time.

Children don’t go from fine to radicalised in 3 seconds. The school and the police absolutely failed her - and the other girls.

acciocat - I’m not “emoting” and I do “have a fucking clue”.

The death of this baby is very sad but I fail to see how it is in any way the responsibility of the UK government? The mother chose her path, she actively supported the group that have created this living hell in which many babies and children have died. We should be supporting groups who provide healthcare for refugees of all nationalities. I care just as much about other babies and children caught up in this conflict, whatever nationality they may be.

Well when you care to substantiate your assertions, maybe there’ll be something worth listening to. Now that you’ve backtracked and admitted the school is not responsible for directly assessing these girls, perhaps you could explain how they failed to act on their concerns when they spotted the signs of radicalisation?

*If it's offensive to you, maybe you should distance yourself from it?

This baby died due to bollocks, populist politics.*

Ironically, this is something akin to populism but I do understand that you're not doing it deliberately. A person isn't uncaring because they see a different route cause (or preventative solution) for a death or other human suffering. Demanding that someone adopt your reasoning to demonstrate that they do care is ultimately cynically capitalising on that misery to push your agenda but, again, I understand that this almost certainly wasn't your direct intent.

Intelligent, excellent post gronky.

Not becoming a baying mob when she was held up by the media would have been helpful. Especially given the number of male British Isis fighters already back in the UK without any such outcry.

So far all the male fighters who returned (long before ISIS was on it's knees) where not of duel citizenship.

A lot of people are glossing over the fact that we offered to bring the baby back, but she refused.

We have followed international law, the same one that people were stating everyone else was a daily mail reader for thinking we shouldn't allow her back in the first place.

This baby - like so many others - died because it was born in a refuge camp. I don't personally think that withdrawing Shamima's citizenship is the right thing to do - but it made no difference to her child's fate as she had no way of being speedily repatriated anyway.

No Gronky you're wrong.

Accio finds the implications for what she is saying offensive. She has stated that. I'm not going to back down because she finds the cold, hard reality upsetting.

As I said, lots of people tying themselves in knots to justify what happened. It says a lot about the dire state of the political narrative in this country.

As someone else has said, groomed by a pervert? A victim. Groomed by Isis? Culpable.

And don't tell me that I don't understand what I say, m'dear

Well, to sum up, I feel desperately sorry for all innocent victims of ISIS and those who support its vile atrocities. Including this baby.

There have been healthcare professionals, camp officials and journalists around her. Two of which would have seen her daily. She would have been triaged whilst clearly pregnant. They would have openly said that she wasn’t pregnant just like they’ve openly confirmed his death

Isn't it odd how we're told the camps are chaotic, disorganised hellholes when it suits, then somehow become capable of running effective systems when it doesn't?

She wasn’t groomed, she was radicalised. There’s a difference.

Jocelyn they are not the same thing at all. ISIS didnt just bump into Shamima at a party, or at the local shopping centre, she actively sought them out online. Just like all the other terrorists.

If she had returned with the baby to this country, then the baby would hopefully been immediately removed for his own safety and given up for adoption well away from this toxic mother and her toxic family

"Silly child who can be rehabilitated" is for someone who at worst drives when drunk or drugged and accidentally kills people.

It's not for someone who glorifies in Crimes Against Humnity and deliberately goes to join an organisation that carries out genocide, slaver and mass rape of minorities

If her current host country want rid of her, of course we have to accept her
We can't dump our poisonous waste on other countries

She's unfortunately a British criminal that we have to deal with
We must make sure that she and any other IS members who return are charged with all possible crimes and given the maximum consecutive sentences

Some countries like the USA and Australia already have laws to give harsh sentences to those who volunteer abroad to commit Crimes Against Humanity

To deal with future IS criminals, Javid should stop his posturing for the Tory leadership and copy these laws for the UK

And we could've saved this baby. We didn't. We've lost the moral high ground.

She will end up back here if she wants to come. It'll happen when all the media furore has died down. "Stripping" her citizenship was a delaying tactic and a sop to certain elements.

As someone else has said, groomed by a pervert? A victim. Groomed by Isis? Culpable.

I disagree with your assessment that the two have to be mutually exclusive.

IS wives participate in watching, whipping & ordering beheading of conquered women

They collaborate in keeping Yazidi & other slaves for their men to rape

• and to sell slavery is highly profitable for IS fighters, as well as pleasurable

How could we have saved the baby squeezy? Specifically.

And we could've saved this baby. We didn't. We've lost the moral high ground.

We offered to bring the baby back, she refused.

Those saying we should have done more are ones who also say we should bring her back and put her baby up for adoption....

How do you think?

Or do you think we left the two of them there, due to practicalities?

We need to own this one.

Barbarian- you could be waiting a while for an intelligent answer!

As I said on the other thread, once you've lost the argument, make it personal.

Squeezy you have been very vocal on this thread about how the UK should have somehow retrieved her, but have refused to say how. If you are going to repeat the assertion that this baby could have been saved then I really think you should answer the question that you refused to yesterday, as to who should have their life risked to go in and get them out.

I can't think of any sane way we could have got that baby back to the UK within 3 weeks. Please elaborate, are you thinking it should have been forcably removed from its mother by the SAS or something?