Forgetting everything but the fact an innocent baby has died

[UnexpectedButExpected]

AIBU to feel unbelievably sad that Shamima Bergum’s baby has died.

The poor mite simply didn’t have a chance in the world he was born in to.

What country is she in Nancy - Kurd held territory on the Syrian/Iraqi border isn't an actual country asfaik.

*All innocent babies and children are equal.
*
Yes. This. A concept many on this thread are unable to grasp.

Meanwhile, as the politicians pontificated, a baby died. Lots of babies die but this baby was one they all knew about, that the entire country knew about, and this baby died.

HateIsNotGood that’s why I said in normal circumstances, these are not normal circumstances so normal laws don’t/can’t apply
Sagradafamiliar she joined & lived with a terrorist organisation, I think it’s reasonable to assume her return could pose a security threat.

Yes...quite. And if she was to return, she'd face the legal and social consequences. Without the facts or evidence, it's speculation as to what risk she poses, what intelligence there is.

Yes, Nancy, and the very fact that she could pose a security threat is a very good reason why she must be detained and contained. She grew right here in the UK, on our doorstep, within our own country and she is totally our responsibility.

Maybe during her probable many years of detention here, we can find out enough to prevent many future young Ms Begums from thinking and doing the same as she did, even sif she herself is unwilling to change.

HateIsNotGood if you read the thread you will see I have already said I think she should be back here so that we know where she is & we can keep an eye on her, so I’m not really sure why you are directing that at me? It was at 0:02.

I feel the death of this poor innocent baby will come back to hurt us as a country. I feel it will fuel ISIS propaganda that we are a country who don't care for our children. We lost the chance to show compassion to Shamima and more importantly her baby so that our Home Secretary could point score ahead of a leadership bid and appear tough. Shamima was groomed in our country at 15, now in her most desperate hour the country she called home (and yes, betrayed in the most horrific circumstances) turned its back on her and ultimately it was her child who paid the ultimate price.
I feel because of the huge propaganda threat that could be manipulated by ISIS sympathisers after this tragedy, our country is more unsafe tonight. And I've never wanted to be more wrong about anything.

It's a lot to happen to someone who's only 19 as well. Very sad for her and her children.

Why do the people who think she is a threat - and I have no idea if she is or not - think that is any other country’s problem? Why is it ok for the UK; where she grew up; where her school,parents and other agencies failed to safeguard her; where she was a citizen, until that was revoked - possibly illegally to simply wash our hands of her?

It’s really, really not.

Smile, I agree. It feels like as a community, we've failed her in so many ways. She's one of our young people, whose futures we probably all say we care very much about, and we should have done better.

In what way should ‘we’ have done better? Who and how?

The thing that gets me is that the baby was born whilst she still retained British citizenship and was technically a British citizen. So a British newborn was allowed to die simply because his Mother made a shitty choice, and we're all meant to say "good, I'm glad, she knew what she was doing".

It's not about her choices, it's not about the fact that she was radicalised in this country, it's not even about IS. It's about the fact a newborn baby, who we as a nation should have protected, was allowed to die because of the shitty choices our Government made. A newborn baby we should have known was not going to survive.

In what way should ‘we’ have done better? Who and how?

Not becoming a baying mob when she was held up by the media would have been helpful. Especially given the number of male British Isis fighters already back in the UK without any such outcry.

No baying here, but the post I was referring to claimed that Shamima had been failed long before her most recent baby died, and that she wasn’t safeguarded because she chose to go to Syria on her sister’s passport despite the strong, consistent message from the govt, from schools, basically from the whole of society, that this would be a Terrible, dangerous decision. So - Who exactly failed her and how?

In what way should ‘we’ have done better? Who and how?

When one girl from her school was groomed, radicalised and went to Syria her school and the security services should have intervened in a much more effective way. Her parents should have noticed and stopped her on line activities- I don’t know how involved in the radical community they are.

That would have been a good start.

SmileEachDay has it. School, friends, the media with their constant anti Islamic bullshit and most of all her parents and family should have realised what was happening.

Quite, fudge brownie. The British government chose not to attempt to protect a newborn British citizen for political advantage. If you approve of that, well, that’s who you are. Rather you then me.

I think we all know that her parents seem awful and want to abdicate any responsibility.

How exactly should her school and the security services have ‘been much more effective?’

How exactly should her school and the security services have ‘been much more effective?

An example: when the first girl from that school went to Syria, rather than directly assessing children at risk and having face to face conversations with families, the school sent a letter home - by giving it to the children. That was it.

That’s an appalling failure in safeguarding.

It is indeed an appalling failure in safeguarding.

As was the inaction of the security services to shut down internet radicalisation.

The school didn’t send a letter. The met police gave letters after interviewing girls as witnesses re: other girls who had traveled to Syria

It's clear there were many missed opportunities and failings along the way. It's madness to deny it. Whatever makes people feel better.

It wouldn’t be the role of the school to directly assess these girls. The role of the school is to act on concerns by alerting the relevant agencies. The police were already aware of these girls, and had interviewed groups of them.

I am not claiming that there were no failings at any point in the process- because I don’t know. What is clear is that there’s no point discussing issues with people who just emote ‘oh the school failed her, society failed her’ without having a fucking clue about where responsibilities lie.

And please would people stop the offensive comments suggesting that any of us are “glad” or “don’t” “care” that a baby has died. Pretty sick to even think that way, but perhaps it makes some people feel better.

I feel sorry for the innocent child, but equally sorry for the thousands of other babies, children, women and men who are victims of the terrible atrocities which Shamima supported.