Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Forgetting everything but the fact an innocent baby has died

961 replies

UnexpectedButExpected · 08/03/2019 19:34

AIBU to feel unbelievably sad that Shamima Bergum’s baby has died.

The poor mite simply didn’t have a chance in the world he was born in to.

Sad
OP posts:
Smotheroffive · 08/03/2019 23:45

Somewhere she was radicalised...do we think she actively wanted three babies?

How much 'choice' did she have.

With exposure to gangs, drink, drugs, sex, etc, as pp stated,those that getcaught up because this is all around them, as teens how much self determination and choice do they have in the middle of the pressures. With all options open to you, who chooses 3 babies by 19?

Smotheroffive · 08/03/2019 23:47

What is it that appeals sufficiently to these children that they do this? She is just one of many.

sagradafamiliar · 08/03/2019 23:49

Nancy you literally just turn up in Iran or Turkey and pay for a visa there and then. I've no idea what her passport situation is. As a British citizen, I don't think her travelling back to the UK would've been the internationally diplomatic ballache it's been made out.
Anyway. She no longer has citizenship. The baby is no longer alive. Talking about what could have been is pointless.

BertrandRussell · 08/03/2019 23:49

“This was a 15 year old girl who was manipulated into terrible actions.”
When you say “terrible actions” what do you mean?

buttermilkwaffles · 08/03/2019 23:50

I wonder how many small children die in these camps without us ever knowing.

According to the IRC:

"At least 100 people, overwhelmingly children, have died en route to al Hol camp or soon after arriving. Two-thirds of the deaths are babies and infants under 5 years old. However, it is unknown how many children may have died earlier in the journey.

Misty Buswell said: “We have seen a staggering number of children die on the journey to Al Hol camp due to a combination of malnutrition and hypothermia. Unfortunately, this figure could be the tip of the iceberg as we’ve been told some children also died as people crossed the desert to escape Baghuz and were buried before they even began the journey to Al Hol.”
www.rescue.org/press-release/al-hol-camp-breaking-point-another-12000-women-and-children-arrive-just-48-hours

LucheroTena · 08/03/2019 23:52

Talk about fucking nitpicking. I said I feel sympathy for her Bertrand. But if leaving your family aged 15 to join IS and have 3 children who died and then still defend your actions isn’t anything other than terrible then I am stumped.

nancy75 · 08/03/2019 23:53

sagradafamiliar she travelled on her sisters passport so she has no documents. You can’t turn up on any border in the world & just get a visa when you have no identification. People were asking why the journalists couldn’t bring her home - the only way for her to come home would be via the consulate in Iraq, which she would need identity documents to get to

sagradafamiliar · 08/03/2019 23:54

Fair enough, I didn't know the only way back was via the consulate in Iraq.

Bluestitch · 08/03/2019 23:56

so who's lives do you want risked getting her back?????

Well apparently an undocumented terrorist and an undocumented baby could just hitch a ride home with visiting journalist so that's a relief!

PickAChew · 08/03/2019 23:58

If a baby never happened, she didn't name the "fictional" baby for the sympathy vote.

sagradafamiliar · 08/03/2019 23:58

Is she a terrorist or is she married to one having been indoctrinated, desensitised, groomed and brainwashed as a minor?

nancy75 · 09/03/2019 00:01

I think she would need to be treated as a terrorist at least for the time being. No matter how she got there her beliefs now seem to be firmly aligned with Isis ideology & if she were allowed back here there is a very real chance she could pose a security risk

nancy75 · 09/03/2019 00:02

I think it is very likely she will be allowed to return & personally I feel it would be safer for us to know where she is & be able to keep an eye on her.

Bluestitch · 09/03/2019 00:03

Terror suspect then. Either way a member of a terrorist organisation who has celebrated their atrocities and supports their aims.

Lizzie48 · 09/03/2019 00:05

Why is it so hard to believe there was a baby? She was 15 years old when she was married to an ISIS fighter, and there wouldn't have been access to contraception. It would have been more surprising if she hadn't had any babies.

That doesn't mean that she didn't bring it all on herself and her innocent babies, obviously.

sagradafamiliar · 09/03/2019 00:13

Absolutely. She's not been found guilty of anything in a UK court of law and would have faced any criminal charges, due process and monitoring on arrival back on British soil. However thanks to HS' unconstitutional, political game of manoeuvring existing laws enshrined in the ECHR, who knows where that will leave her now. And what it will in fact mean for everyone given that people in positions of power can bend things so easily according to their own agendas. Very murky, shaky ground we're on.

NunoGoncalves · 09/03/2019 00:20

It's sad of course, but I'm not sure why this case deserves any more sympathy than the thousands of innocent babies who die every day, They're all sad. Newborn babies die every day due to lack of quality healthcare while people around the world post pictures on instagram of their $ 20,000 dresses, $ 5000 suits and $ 250,000 cars for our teenagers to gawp over.

nancy75 · 09/03/2019 00:20

In my opinion the case has brought to light a failure of our justice system to deal with the problem of what to do with people that leave Britain to join a group that we are effectively at war against.
What they probably should have done was passed a law some years ago stating that anyone that went off to join isis ( or any other group like it) would face x amount of years in prison when/if they returned.

NunoGoncalves · 09/03/2019 00:23

What they probably should have done was passed a law some years ago stating that anyone that went off to join isis ( or any other group like it) would face x amount of years in prison when/if they returned

I believe there is a law against it. So I'm not sure why they don't just let them (her) come home into police custody followed by prosecution. I think this whole thing was partly a political PR stunt that's gone awry.

nancy75 · 09/03/2019 00:23

Their failure to sort this out has left us in a kind of limbo, where people are coming back & because they can’t prove they have committed a crime they have to be free & then under surveillance which costs a huge amount of money & doesn’t guarantee public safety

nancy75 · 09/03/2019 00:25

NunoGoncalves I’m really not sure so don’t quote me but I think if there is a law it’s about fighting with them, rather than going to live in the caliphate. She’s saying she didn’t do anything, was just a housewife

sagradafamiliar · 09/03/2019 00:28

The terrorism Acts are quite extensive, it's not like she would've just been given the go-ahead to carry on like nothing happened.

nancy75 · 09/03/2019 00:35

No, obviously not, but could they prove she had done enough to put her in prison? In normal circumstances if you commit a crime in another country you go to prison in that country, you don’t just come home & get followed around by the security services

sagradafamiliar · 09/03/2019 00:37

What crime? None of us have access to any intelligence the UK have about crimes or risk she poses against/to us.

MadCatEnthusiast · 09/03/2019 00:37

It’s a tragedy that this innocent boy has died of pneumonia. It really is because he was effectively collateral damage of this whole IS situation. All of her children were.

But I’m not liking a few of these posts on this thread. One being was this baby even real? Did he exist? Was he someone else’s baby?

There have been healthcare professionals, camp officials and journalists around her. Two of which would have seen her daily. She would have been triaged whilst clearly pregnant. They would have openly said that she wasn’t pregnant just like they’ve openly confirmed his death. Journalist have seen him even if we get the cut version of the interview. There are pictures of this baby even if it was uncovered, people would still say she was parading her baby.

Secondly, it’s not fair to say she doesn’t look malnourished especially as her two other babies died of similar circumstances. One was ill and that illness was aggravated by malnutrition. The other was also ill. These illnesses are likely to be a product of their environment. Dusty, sandy and unsanitary without proper medical resources. Yes, IS had medical centres and what not but these two deaths were after when all HCPs left to or their resources depleted. She was in the camp for two weeks prior to her discovery by the Times journo. She’d quite likely have been fed carby calorific food as she was pregnant and then breastfeeding.

It’s really not fair to say “oh well, there were other babies that died because of IS and the Syrian war”. All innocent babies and children are equal.

Besides, he didn’t stand a chance because even in this country small children with pneumonia can get incredibly sick enough to be in intensive care. He just didn’t have that