Forgetting everything but the fact an innocent baby has died

[UnexpectedButExpected]

AIBU to feel unbelievably sad that Shamima Bergum’s baby has died.

The poor mite simply didn’t have a chance in the world he was born in to.

Even if she had been allowed to return I doubt it would have been an instant process and the outcome may have been the same.

I wonder how many small children die in these camps without us ever knowing.

Blue she could lawfully have travelled back home and then faced the legal consequences once back in the country. The authorities would've been waiting for her. And the baby would've had a shot at life.

She willingly went to Syria to participate in the murders of innocent men, women and children, even if it was just providing a hot meal and sex, whilst being unfazed by the severed heads in buckets, to whoever was doing the killing although there were reports of British women participating in torture and murder.

I'm amazed anyone could feel sympathy for this disgusting creature.

I sincerely hope she feels the pain of a thousand cuts for the rest of her miserable life if she really did lose her babies as she put them in harms way, no one else.

Well,Javid has successfully persuaded you that his actions were lawful, klopptimist, and you haven’t spotted his true motives, which were purely to secure political advantage. I’d call that prettty successfulmanipulation.

@sagradafamiliar how could she have lawfully travelled home? She is in a camp in Syria, with no documents & probably no money. The closest consular assistance is in Iraq ( I think it’s Iraq?) how would she have got there within a time frame that would have avoided the death of the baby?

Nancy it was in response to the question of travelling back with journalists/film crew. She was a British citizen so I don't see what could have prevented her re-entering the country in that way unless the interviewers themselves declined it.

Blue she could lawfully have travelled back home and then faced the legal consequences once back in the country.

If that was a practical option she would have already attempted it before being stripped of citizenship surely? Such as on finding out she was pregnant again after already losing 2 kids. I'm not sure how she could feasibly make her own way home anyway, certainly not within any timeframe that would have made a difference to her poor son. His fate was sealed by the circumstances of his birth sadly.

I really don't understand why anyone should have any sympathy for this woman. She chose to reject our country and our values and our democracy and way of life when she left the country to join Daesh. She did this entirely of her own volition. She was not at any point groomed or coerced into this. She is not and has never been a victim here. She is absolutely remorseless and clearly doesn't give a fig about the atrocities that Daesh have committed. If a child has died then yes that is very sad. It was an innocent baby and you would need to be disturbed not to find the death of an innocent baby sad. However this still doesn't confer on us any obligation to do anything to assist a terrorist who is no longer a British citizen. She made her choice acting of her own free will. Are we supposed to just turn a blind eye to the acts of terrorism she has colluded in and the threat she poses to us. I don't want a Daesh terrorist here and nobody on this forum could honestly tell me that they would be ok with having her live near them either. Why the hell should we let a terrorist waltz back in to the country and place the financial burden of trying and incarcerating/feeding her on the taxpayer or worse the burden of paying to protect her / house her and giving her a new identity. Who on this forum could honestly say that they would be happy for any of our military to be put in harms way unnecessarily just to retrieve an unrepentant terrorist who would kill us all if she could. If any of the hand wringing bleeding heart sympathisers with her want to put themselves at risk to try and help her that is fine but do not expect the rest of us to lift a finger for her.

The film crew/ journalists would have to get her out of Syria & into Iraq with no documents. Don’t know about you but Iraq isn’t the kind of country I’d want to risk illegally smuggling people into

@KingHenrysCodpiece

*she would still be in the camp as there is no British Consulate in Syria and therefore no-one to assist her

Somebody did make the rather persuasive point that Journalists have had quite a lot of access.*

Yes, journalist have got into the camp. That is not the same thing as British Consular presence and, quite obviously, they are not officials from the British and Commonwealth Office- so I don't really see what difference it makes to Shamima's position?

Perhaps you mean that British consular staff or military personnel should have gone to find Shamima (and her son, when he was alive) because the journalists could get there? If so, I am quite sure the UK could send people there to find Shamima. However, I don't think it would be at all reasonable to suggest British Consular staff but themselves at risk to go into Syria or the camps. Nor should we risk military personnel for a mission like this. It is very clear, and has been for some years, that there is no consular representatives in Syria and the surrounding regions and therefore anyone travelling there does so at their own risk. If we made an exception for Shamima (before they stripped her of UK citizenship), then they would have had to do exactly the same thing for every other UK citizen, regardless of where they go or the reasons they are there. That is a ludicrous suggestion.

I think military, diplomatic or consular staff would be in greater danger than a journalist going into the same region due to who they are and that they represent the UK government.

Perhaps you are suggesting the journalists could have arranged for her to be taken to the nearest consular station or even brought her home?

Journalists see human suffering every day, all over the world. I'm sure they have often wanted to scoop up people and take them to safety, but they can't. The idea that they could offer a terror suspect a ride home is ridiculous.

Completely agree jacks11

I'm still very upset about the baby. I think the mother had no idea how to look after babies at all. For that I have sympathy.

He took it to appeal to the likes of the people on here.

Probably so.

He did not address his mind to the welfare of the child.

Absolutely not his responsibility. Any more than the welfare of any child born to a British person who has chosen to live in a foreign country, however inhospitable, is his concern.

Yes, my first reaction is sadness - chances are the baby would have died even if we/the UK Govt would have considered the mother'sreturn.

However, the 'displacement' of people, making them stateless through their beliefs, religion, culture and even disability is a 'method' that we claim will never happen again, but yet here we nearly are again, following that same path.

UK Citizens that left to join IS, should be allowed to return, straight into detention centres for assessment, to be detained for as long as they pose a risk.

Ms Begum has been an IS Baby-machine since she was 15, she may already equate her grief for her 3 dead children with the grief that the mothers of the people whose de-capitated heads she saw in bins without much feeling also feel. She might not.

Bring the Lass home, not to her family, but back here. What else is she to do? Die? Or die in 'splendour'? She's best back here, what else besides a 'splendid death' could she live for?

She was not at any point geoomed or coerced into this

And you know that exactly how jb?

I think she most certainly was groomed. That doesn't give her a free pass for her actions though.

Ghanagirl I don’t think you understand. My objection to SB is that she is a terrorist, not because of her race, religion, ethnicity or colour. Ditto her Dutch husband. No where have I said her children’s life’s or worth less than any other child. That is abhorrent. To think of a newborn baby struggling to breathe is unbearably sad.

Nancy I wasn't under the impression they'd need to travel via Iraq. It's easy enough to purchase visas/travel documents on the spot, if required anyway.

Jacks11 See my reply earlier above.

“She was not at any point groomed or coerced into this”

How do you know?

sagradafamiliar it’s easy to purchase travel documents on the spot?
What, when you are in a Syrian refuge camp with a child that has never had a passport & you also don’t have a passport?
These camps barely have water & blankets, they certainly don’t have a post office to do check & send

Don't be ridiculous, nancy. We were clearly talking about British citizens exiting the country.

This was a 15 year old girl who was manipulated into terrible actions. Even if she is too pig headed in youth to realise it. I have no idea if we could have done anything to get her and her baby to safety and certainly it would have been wrong to put rescuers at risk. But I think Sajid Javid’s actions stink of the reactive populism that has taken over this country and I don’t know how anyone can feel anything other than pity for this poor baby and it’s wretched damaged teenage mother.

When you think of the terrible criminals we house in this country her actions are pretty minor. The Daily Mail is truly in charge of this country now.

sagradafamiliar you said it’s easy enough to get travel documents & they wouldn’t have to take her via Iraq. She doesn’t have a passport, the baby didn’t have a passport, how would they have got them travel documents? How would they get her out of Syria without them?
I obviously don’t understand what you meant by easy enough to get travel documents?

so who's lives do you want risked getting her back?????