AIBU to ask if you changed your opinion about Brexit

[Flyingfish2019]

We had a lot of Brexit threads but I think not about this topic. As somebody who does not live in Britain I wonder if you changed your opinion about Brexit now that you heard that a hard Brexit is most likely. Would you vote different if there was a second vote?

Legally binding elections are democratic, referenda are advisory and are or were seen as an opinion poll as an indication of actions to be taken or not, the problem with the 2016 referendum is that phrases such as "the will of the people " were ceased upon by the self interested right wing press and disaster capitalists pushing the government to act in an evangelical manner rather than a rational manner. I would definitely not change my vote which was remain because the words fuck and cluster don't even come close to the impact that this is having on our country.

It's bizarre:

1. The government can present an Identical question to parliament again and again to try and get a different answer.

1. The government cannot present an identical question to the people with more detail and information.

Why is the first democratic and the second undemocratic?

Voted Leave.

Would vote remain now due to the aforementioned 'shitstorm'

So yes, I've changed my mind

*It's bizarre:

1. The government can present an Identical question to parliament again and again to try and get a different answer.

1. The government cannot present an identical question to the people with more detail and information.

Why is the first democratic and the second undemocratic? *

This is what I've been thinking for a while

Why is the first democratic and the second undemocratic?

Its a null question as the powers that be are refusing to even contemplate a second referendum

People change their mind when voting in a GE every time it comes around. The undemocratic argument doesn't stand.

Also @hoppity it is not over in a few weeks, that is just the beginning of a load more negotiations, preparations, more comoanies and orgs leaving UK to set up HQs in the EU. The government will be sorting brexit stuff for the rest of their political lives no doubt.

Its a null question as the powers that be are refusing to even contemplate a second referendum

That's because the Brexiters have the wheel and they know that they wouldn't win a second time.

How undemocratic.

Spoiler you have no idea nor any right to guess at what these people want or are imagining. And this entitlement to say whether people are happy that they should shut up and be told what they should do or expect is exactly what has gotten (its a real word, pedants fuck off) us in to this mess.

It's quite simple really. Either we will have a Brexit that isn't really a meaningful Brexit, and people will complain that it doesn't deliver anything they were promised about "taking back control" (because it can't), or we will have a Brexit that is a meaningful Brexit, which will be unimaginably chaotic and bad for everyone except the likes of Jacob Rees Mogg, and people will complain that they weren't told it would be like this.

They were told, but they believed the Project Fear rhetoric.

20 days to go ......
I do hope the leavers will be proud of themselves next month.

TonightJosephine

That's because the Brexiters have the wheel and they know that they wouldn't win a second time.

Some Brexiters have the wheel and not all are against a second referendum. The first was two close to call the second would be the same.

How undemocratic.

Seems to be a favourite term for some leavers.

TonightJosephine

Define meaningful brexit.
Again different things for different people

They were told, but they believed the Project Fear rhetoric.

I look forward to when we can get away form the stereotyping bullshit, but then what would you fall back on.

@BrexiteerThrough - I’m past caring about whether it’s democratic. The information provided at the time of the referendum was incorrect, it should never happened in the first place, it’s horrendous to see how racist so many people are and I wish I’d been entitled to vote - to remain.

Yes this post sums it up. It's what happens when you risk the whole countries trade and economy to head for an undefined destination all based on nothing but a made up new single word...

It's quite simple really. Either:
1.We will have a Brexit that isn't really a meaningful Brexit, and people will complain that it doesn't deliver anything they were promised about "taking back control" (because it can't) or
2.We will have a Brexit that is a meaningful Brexit, which will be unimaginably chaotic and bad for everyone (except the likes of Jacob Rees Mogg) and people will complain that they weren't told it would be like this.

Define meaningful brexit.

1. No more free movement of people.
2. No longer obliged to follow any EU rules.

Should probably involve us having an extra £350m a week to spend on what we want as well but let's not go crazy here.

Realistically if the first two are achieved then that is what I would call a meaningful Brexit (because these two things were at the heart of the leave campaign), but the only way to do that is to crash out with no deal. And people really won't enjoy that, whatever guff they're coming out with now about how we'll be fine on WTO rules.

I don't believe anyone still trumps on about £350m?

1. It's a teeny tiny percentage of GDP).
2. It got us unrestricted access to a market on our doorstep worth $18.8 trillion with 500 million consumers.

Quite a good deal actually but -hey ho - the Leavers won. They get to minimise Romanian nurses and maximise Filipino and Indian ones.

Define meaningful brexit.

1. No more free movement of people.
2. No longer obliged to follow any EU rules.

Both disasters!

Obliged to follow EU rules?

Ha ha ha!

1. We wrote many of those rules and France, Germany, Portugal etc were 'obliged' to follow them.

1. In fact we all agreed to follow the limited rules consensually.

1. The rules we will have to agree to for US trade are worse.

4.The British government only voted against EU laws 2% of the time since 1999.

1. Official EU voting records show that the British government has voted ‘No’ to laws passed at EU level on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ 2,466 times.

1. The rules all members (including the U.K.) agreed to delegate in this way related only to a few policy areas. These included goods safety, agriculture standards, environment protections and workers basic rights in return for trade.

1. The U.K. govt retained complete autonomy over the vast majority of matters. For example health, elderly care,benefits,housing ,pensions, education, policing, crime, defence , fiscal policy ,administrative law, banking and finance, commercial law, constitutional law ,Construction law, Contract law ,Corporation law ,Some Employment law ,Energy and resources law ,Family law including marriage, divorce, adoption, finances,Film and entertainment law,Insolvency litigation, banking and debt recovery issues,Law of succession, wills and estates, Law of torts , compensation for wrongful acts e.g. negligence, nuisance, defamation, trespass ,personal injury and medical negligence law, Property law, Sports law and personal

Taxation.

@Parker231 - No longer obliged to follow any EU rules.

Really? So you think the EU rules relating to things like the following are a disaster? I know I'm very grateful for them.

• equal opportunities for men and women
• protection against discrimination based on sex, race, religion, disability etc
• maximum working hours, right to breaks
• maternity rights
• safety standards for products sold in the EU
• food safety directives
• etc, etc

@doireadyneedto - sorry I meant it will be disaster not having free movement of people and not having the EU rules. I agree with you regarding employment rights and food safety.

Oops. Just realised that the "both disasters" comment by @Parker231 was presumably sarcasm. So I will read dress my question to @TonightJosephine who defined a meaningful brexit:

No longer obliged to follow any EU rules.

Really? So you think the EU rules relating to things like the following are a disaster? I know I'm very grateful for them.

• equal opportunities for men and women
• protection against discrimination based on sex, race, religion, disability etc
• maximum working hours, right to breaks
• maternity rights
• safety standards for products sold in the EU
• food safety directives
• etc, etc

@Parker231 - I had originally missed TonightJosephine's original post but once I spotted it I realised you were responding to her.

Hey guys, just to clarify, I don't think ending free movement of people or no longer following EU rules are good things. I am a passionate remainer. It's just that those are the two things I would say we need to have in order to have a meaningful Brexit, i.e. a Brexit that delivers the essential things the leave campaigners promised it would.

@TonightJosephine - a Brexit that delivers the essential things the leave campaigners promised it would

The problem is, the leave campaigners promised so many contradictory things that while getting rid of freedom of movement and EU rules would deliver some of what was promised, it would also prevent some of the other things they promised from happening.

Voted leave. Regret it.

Well there is no Brexit that delivers everything they promised. I think everyone, whether leave or remain, would agree on that.

But the essence of their campaign was about immigration and sovereignty. Taking back control. Getting our country back. Etc.

Any kind of softer Brexit which doesn't deliver those things is going to be treated by leave voters as a remain stitch up, and if that's the outcome then what's the point? If it doesn't even make the people xho voted happy, we may as well not bother. Might as well do a proper remain stitch up and call the whole thing off.