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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to remind everyone that the MMR vaccine does NOT cause autism?

999 replies

TheHodgeoftheHedge · 05/03/2019 16:49

Seeing as this worry comes up so many times on MN and in wider life, I feel obliged to post this and remind everyone that MMR has not link to autism whatsoever, as yet another HUGE study has found.

www.independent.co.uk/news/health/mmr-vaccine-autism-antivax-measles-study-andrew-wakefield-a8808086.html

Thanks.

OP posts:
Cathmidston · 15/03/2019 08:09

Also vaccines don't make the pharma companies any money, they couldn't care less. If anything they would rather you didn't vaccinate as sick children make far much more money, so if that's your worry you're probably helping them out.

OMG that’s hilarious www.globalresearch.ca/big-pharma-and-big-profits-the-multibillion-dollar-vaccine-market/5503945

Rainbowjellies · 15/03/2019 08:13

That's still small change to pharma LOL look how much cancer treatments et al makes them, 100s of billions. They really aren't as fussed as you think.

Rainbowjellies · 15/03/2019 08:15

Oh and also hilariously this site debunks your whole vaccines make large profits theory

www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/the-myth-of-big-pharma-vaccine-profits-updated/

Cathmidston · 15/03/2019 08:18

look how much cancer treatments et al makes them, 100s of billions
Yes I expect it does!

Ah skepticalraptor... bless.... the public ‘information’ arm of the pharmaceutical companies Hmm

Rainbowjellies · 15/03/2019 08:20

You mean like your respectable sources ha

Cathmidston · 15/03/2019 08:20

More from our philanthropic pharma companies www.nytimes.com/2003/01/26/us/drug-sales-bring-huge-profits-and-scrutiny-to-cancer-doctors.html

Rainbowjellies · 15/03/2019 08:24

That article is about Drs making profits not pharma? That the insurance would buy at the same price the drs can and not charge the patient more, that's nothing to do with pharma.

greathat · 15/03/2019 08:25

Just amazed at the level of idiocy. There is no link between vaccines and autism. The one person to have ever claimed to have found one was being paid to say it, was totally corrupt and struck off. Even scientists paid to find one can't find one when they use real science. I don't know why I'm bothering to be honest, god could appear in a blaze of glory, trumpets playing, announce the facts and people will still say "well I did hours of research on this website so you're wrong"

Cathmidston · 15/03/2019 08:28

that's nothing to do with pharma... and who do you think is behind the incentives from theses insurance companies?

Rainbowjellies · 15/03/2019 08:30

They were selling at the same price to drs or insurance either way makes them no more or less money.

Cathmidston · 15/03/2019 08:31

You’re deluded

Another interesting article..www.propublica.org/article/double-dip-doctors-paid-to-advise-promote-drug-companies-that-fund-research

Rainbowjellies · 15/03/2019 08:41

You still keep linking to drs doing things not pharma. And I never claimed pharma were benevolent, of course they want to make money, but neither are they weirdos who want to keep everybody sick. This has only come about because of the USAs fear of socialism and socialist care so the companies can charge lots of money.

And of everybody on this thread I'm very much clearly not the deluded one.

Ewitsahooman · 15/03/2019 09:07

One of the biggest factors in autism is genetics.

I have two autistic siblings, one diagnosed in early teens and the other as an adult when our younger sibling's diagnosis made them look at their own difficulties in key areas.

Four of my cousins are autistic, diagnosed in their late teens and again after my sibling was diagnosed which was when our awareness of autism was raised.

We are now all adults and have had our own children, most were born before the initial diagnosis. Out of the current generation I have one DC who is autistic and one on the diagnosis pathway. Three of my cousins who are NT but have autistic siblings each have an autistic child. Two of my four siblings have an autistic child each.

One of my cousin's DC has had genetic testing as have both of my DC, the results showed they carry genetic markers for ASD.

Fuck all to do with vaccines.

Lweji · 15/03/2019 09:09

One of the biggest factors in autism is genetics.

Indeed.
But if some people believe it's not, then they're probably right too. Grin
Never mind reality. Beliefs are SOOOOOO much more important.

KissingInTheRain · 15/03/2019 09:19

Ah skepticalraptor... bless.... the public ‘information’ arm of the pharmaceutical companies

It’s always welcome to see the pro-plaguers reduced to big pharma vaccine conspiracy theory. When that happens you can be sure they’ve run out of ‘arguments’ based on their ‘scientific research’ (a.k.a. crackpot pseudoscience peddled on the internet).

Now Cath’s gone full crank we can all watch as she tells us about lizard people and suchlike.

Actually, Cath, what are your views on chem trails, the flat earth and the Illuminati?

Lweji · 15/03/2019 09:27

Also to add the concept of vaccine failure.

Vaccines are designed to cover as many strains of a given pathogen as possible. If the pathogen is very conservative then pretty much all strains should be covered.
But some viruses are more variable and it's not possible to cover all strains (e.g. HPV, flu).
Sometimes mutant pathogens emerge or spread. Can't remember exactly, but a new strain of mums or measles was detected fairly recently as causing some cases of the disease in vaccinated people.
Of course that if you only link to the outbreak it may look as if the vaccine is useless, but if you dig deeper then you'll find the reasons why.
Plus, some vaccines wear off but are not given to adults (because usually it's enough to cover the younger groups).
So, one outbreak among adults says very little about vaccine efficacy in general.

I hope this post was sufficiently vile and sarcastic. Grin

SausageAndEgg · 15/03/2019 09:30

FYI I hate “big pharma” and I’m still pro-vaccination. Sometimes even when you dislike soul sucking entities you must see that they still have benefits

MissConductUS · 15/03/2019 09:51

and many scientists believe cellular immunity is far more important..

Can you provide a few examples?

Did I miss the explanation of how your children have zero risk of complications from infectious disease?

Cathmidston · 15/03/2019 09:53

but a new strain of mums or measles was detected fairly recently as causing some cases of the disease in vaccinated people

The notion of so called viruses mutating etc etc.. is pure hypothesis. Most of the viruses alleged to cause these diseases have never been isolated in the true sense... so to then state they’re mutating is pure conjecture

Since the early 1990s, German biologist Dr. Stefan Lanka has been at the forefront of challenging the medical theory stating that viruses are the cause of infectious diseases such as hepatitis, AIDS, the flu, polio, herpes, or measles. Caroline Markolin has presented Dr. Lanka’s activities in her lecture video “Virus Mania” in great details (watch Part 2 of the recordings on this website – starting at 08:08).

Based on his studies in virology, Dr. Lanka discovered that viruses are vital components of simple life-forms that do not exist in complex organisms such as humans, animals, or plants. His research shows that the viruses believed to cause “viral infections” are in reality ordinary cell particles that have been misinterpreted as constituents of the viruses in question. Dr. Lanka also determined that viruses don’t have a destructive effect on the host, as commonly believed. These findings are in full accordance with the discoveries of Dr. Ryke Geerd Hamer who demonstrated already in the 1980s that contrary to the standard theory, microbes do not harm the organism but play instead a supportive role during the healing process of diseases (see Fourth Biological Law of the New Medicine).

The “measles virus trial” between Dr. Stefan Lanka and German medical doctor David Bardens has by now received international attention (see the 2015 reports in CTV News Canada and BBC News). The court case has not only heated up the ongoing “virus debate”. It also fuelled the discussion about the justification of childhood vaccination and of vaccinations in general.

Here is a brief overview of the court proceedings:

On November 24, 2011, Dr. Lanka announced on his website that he would offer a prize of € 100,000 to anyone who could prove the existence of the measles virus. The announcement read as follows: “The reward will be paid, if a scientific publication is presented, in which the existence of the measles virus is not only asserted, but also proven and in which, among other things, the diameter of the measles virus is determined.”

In January 2012, Dr. David Bardens took Dr. Lanka up on his pledge. He offered six papers on the subject and asked Dr. Lanka to transfer the € 100,000 to his bank account.

The six publications are:

  1. Enders JF, Peebles TC. Propagation in tissue cultures of cytopathogenic agents from patients with measles. Proc Soc Exp Biol Med. 1954 Jun;86(2):277–286.
  1. Bech V, Magnus Pv. Studies on measles virus in monkey kidney tissue cultures. Acta Pathol Microbiol Scand. 1959; 42(1): 75–85
  1. Horikami SM, Moyer SA. Structure, Transcription, and Replication of Measles Virus. Curr Top Microbiol Immunol. 1995; 191: 35–50.
  1. Nakai M, Imagawa DT. Electron microscopy of measles virus replication. J Virol. 1969 Feb; 3(2): 187–97.
  1. Lund GA, Tyrell, DL, Bradley RD, Scraba DG. The molecular length of measles virus RNA and the structural organization of measles nucleocapsids. J Gen Virol. 1984 Sep;65 (Pt 9):1535–42.
  1. Daikoku E, Morita C, Kohno T, Sano K. Analysis of Morphology and Infectivity of Measles Virus Particles. Bulletin of the Osaka Medical College. 2007; 53(2): 107–14.

Dr. Lanka refused to pay the money since in his opinion these publications did not provide adequate evidence. Subsequently, Dr. Bardens took Dr. Lanka to court.

On March 12, 2015, the District Court Ravensburg in southern Germany ruled that the criteria of the advertisement had been fulfilled ordering Dr. Lanka to pay up. Dr. Lanka appealed the ruling.

On February 16, 2016, the Higher Regional Court of Stuttgart (OLG) re-evaluated the first ruling, judging that Dr. Bardens did not meet the criteria since he failed to provide proof for the existence of the measles virus presented in one publication, as asked by Dr. Lanka in his announcement. Therefore, Dr. Lanka does not have to pay the prize money.

On January 16, 2017, the First Civil Senate of the German Federal Court of Justice (BGH) confirmed the ruling of the OLG Stuttgart.

Critics of the judicial verdict argue that Dr. Lanka’s victory is solely based on how he had formulated the offer of reward, namely to pay the € 100,000 for the presentation of a single publication of evidence (which Dr. Bardens was unable to provide). This argument, however, distracts the attention from the essential points.
According to the minutes of the court proceedings (page 7/ first paragraph), Andreas Podbielski, head of the Department of Medical Microbiology, Virology and Hygiene at the University Hospital in Rostock, who was one of the appointed experts at the trial, stated that even though the existence of the measles virus could be concluded from the summary of the six papers submitted by Dr. Bardens, none of the authors had conducted any controlled experiments in accordance with internationally defined rules and principles of good scientific practice (see also the method of “indirect evidence”). Professor Podbielski considers this lack of control experiments explicitly as a “methodological weakness” of these publications, which are after all the relevant studies on the subject (there are no other publications trying to attempt to prove the existence of the “measles virus”). Thus, at this point, a publication about the existence of the measles virus that stands the test of good science has yet to be delivered.
Furthermore, at the trial it was noted that contrary to its legal remit as per § 4 Infection Protection Act (IfSG) the Robert Koch Institute (RKI), the highest German authority in the field of infectious diseases, has failed to perform tests for the alleged measles virus and to publish these. The RKI claims that it made internal studies on the measles virus, however, refuses to hand over or publish the results.

Dr. Lanka: “With the Supreme Court judgment in the measles virus trial any national and international statements on the alleged measles virus, the infectivity of measles, and on the benefit and safety of vaccination against measles, are since then of no scientific character and have thus been deprived of their legal basis.”

TheHodgeoftheHedge · 15/03/2019 10:00

I didn’t say they had zero risk of developing it... I said they had zero risk of complications ... the same kind of risk you consider your children are at from vaccines .. I beg to differ

My sincerest apologies if I've missed it Cath, but have you yet explained how your children are super human and somehow magically not at risk from any diseases and their effects, please? Because it really seems like we should alert the medical community and let everyone know about it so that everyone can be safe from them and get rid of these pointless vaccines, eh?

OP posts:
Ewitsahooman · 15/03/2019 10:17

The court cases are not represented accurately and Lanka won the appeals on a technicality of how the terms of the bet were phrased rather than because the measles virus does exist. The courts never said the virus doesn't exist, they said the evidence provided by Bardens didn't meet the terms and conditions of the competition.

Bardens sent six publications to Lanka proving that the measles virus exists. Lanka wasn't happy to be proven wrong and forced to pay out by the courts so he appealed the decision because his competition offer was in phrased that he needed one article proving measles virus exists but Bardens sent six so Lanka appealed on the grounds that Bardens had breeched the terms of the bet and won on this technicality. He was not appealing the existence of measles, he was appealing having to pay out €100,000 when the terms of the bet itself had not been met, the ruling was on competition rules and only competition rules.

Never did any court of justice in these cases uphold "that the measles virus didn't exist". To the contrary: the publications sent by Bardens were deemed by the judges and their expert consultants to provide the proof – but only when read together as a collection of evidence did they meet the competition rules set by Lanka.

Quotes from the judges include:

"You could have presented 600 pieces of evidence as well, and he would not have accepted any of them."

"As a result, the appeal, in so far as it is admissible, is successful in any event, since the criterion of the claim to prove the existence of the measles virus by 'one scientific publication' has not been fulfilled by the applicant."

And very tellingly, "It is by no means the opinion of the court that a measles virus does not exist".

Cathmidston · 15/03/2019 10:25

Andreas Podbielski, head of the Department of Medical Microbiology, Virology and Hygiene at the University Hospital in Rostock, who was one of the appointed experts at the trial, stated that even though the existence of the measles virus could be concluded from the summary of the six papers submitted by Dr. Bardens, none of the authors had conducted any controlled experiments in accordance with internationally defined rules and principles of good scientific practice (see also the method of “indirect evidence”). Professor Podbielski considers this lack of control experiments explicitly as a “methodological weakness” of these publications, which are after all the relevant studies on the subject (there are no other publications trying to attempt to prove the existence of the “measles virus”)

Vinylsamso · 15/03/2019 12:21

Cathmidston - I know it’s hard but o think you should leave this conversation now.

You know, I know, lots know...but some don’t want to know.

You’re winding yourself up for no reason. Remember why you are doing this?? For YOUR family and YOUR children. Let these people judge between themselves. There is no need to defend yourself.

Have a good day x

Lweji · 15/03/2019 12:32

The notion of so called viruses mutating etc etc.. is pure hypothesis. Most of the viruses alleged to cause these diseases have never been isolated in the true sense... so to then state they’re mutating is pure conjecture

My virologist colleagues would find that entire statement highly amusing.

Perhaps you might want to come to the lab and see how wrong you are?

Lweji · 15/03/2019 12:33

Ah, most of them also work on viruses that pose little to no interest to pharma. So...