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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to remind everyone that the MMR vaccine does NOT cause autism?

999 replies

TheHodgeoftheHedge · 05/03/2019 16:49

Seeing as this worry comes up so many times on MN and in wider life, I feel obliged to post this and remind everyone that MMR has not link to autism whatsoever, as yet another HUGE study has found.

www.independent.co.uk/news/health/mmr-vaccine-autism-antivax-measles-study-andrew-wakefield-a8808086.html

Thanks.

OP posts:
BlooShampoo · 06/03/2019 23:07

An anti-vaxx group funded one such study. It found no link. They were not happy. Grin

HateIsNotGood · 06/03/2019 23:12

Ewits and that is a flaw of all research and why in the 'research' world nothing is considered a done deal. Research involves researching the existing research too and so on and on...

No one is blaming you for parents of dc with autism not taking part in research studies...goodness me, you'd be aiming your barbs at a 'population' that have been blamed for their dc's autism in more ways than you can imagine...we're just mostly too busy negotiating a path through the world for our autistic offspring to take part in research.

It's not that we've not been asked, I have, as I'm sure many others have too - just real life, getting on with it is far more important.

Yes, that creates a deficit in research material - but as any good research scientist knows, they need to model their research to account for that.

EwItsAHooman · 06/03/2019 23:13

we're just mostly too busy negotiating a path through the world for our autistic offspring to take part in research.

My oldest DS is autistic, another of my DC is on the assessment pathway.

Katterinaballerina · 06/03/2019 23:14

As an aside, does anyone else feel that sticking a picture of a doctor in a white coat ( with a stethoscope in case you didn’t quite get it) on your book cover when they didn’t write the book is a tad desperate.

HateIsNotGood · 06/03/2019 23:18

Well then Ewits, how many research studies have you participated in then? They're ongoing and available now - if you have time.

HateIsNotGood · 06/03/2019 23:21

www.autismresearchcentre.com/

Good Night to all.

DobbinsVeil · 06/03/2019 23:22

I have 2 DC with ASD, both had the MMR which in no way causes nor contributed to them having ASD.

But at DS1's dx in 2008, I was asked about his MMR, did he have a reaction. Yes said I, as he did - a known one rash/fever about 12 days after. The consultant paed said, no that was a coincidence, he must have had a virus. I said no, it was a known possible side-effect. The 2 other clinicians involved in his ASD assessment then joined saying I was mistaken and it must have been a virus.

I was still a bit shocked from getting the dx for DS1 so I just left it. But it does make wonder why they asked and why they were determined to record no MMR reaction.

EwItsAHooman · 06/03/2019 23:22

Well then Ewits, how many research studies have you participated in then? They're ongoing and available now - if you have time.

Three, as well as taking part in training assessments for staff working in neurodevelopment and allowing DS' appointments to be filmed for future training.

Gilead · 06/03/2019 23:27

Arc is not the worlds best place to be involved in research studies, Simon Baron Cohen’s model of Autism is a tad flawed.

BlooShampoo · 06/03/2019 23:33

Oof. To be honest there’s no fucking way I’d offer up my genome for a study because - especially with this resurgence of antivaxx ideology - I don’t see it leading anywhere other than eugenics. It’s a shame, because it could be used for good - for example, to help autistic people with higher support needs overcome specific difficulties, without trying to “CuRe ThE aUtiSm”. But I don’t feel sufficiently reassured that people like me are regarded as of equal worth to non-autistic people.

BlooShampoo · 06/03/2019 23:34

Arc is not the worlds best place to be involved in research studies, Simon Baron Cohen’s model of Autism is a tad flawed
Yup.

BlooShampoo · 06/03/2019 23:36

Petty sidenote, but ARC are in dire need of a website redesign. The whole 2007 blog vibe makes it look really bootleg

OwlBeThere · 06/03/2019 23:43

@x2boys I agree that it’s all well and good talking about ASD when you have high functioning children who will do pretty well in the world with the right support, what people don’t talk about in these debates and why @cheryl’s comment bothered me is that severe ASD can be just as devastating to a person as Damage from the vaccine-preventable disease so glibly saying the illness is ‘scarier’ totally dismisses has belittles the lives of many families affected by ASD. I love my son fiercely but I’d be lying if there weren’t times where it was all too much and I wish one of us wasn’t here. And that’s the blunt truth, we are meant to say that we would always have them regardless and how amazing they are and that life is great and whilst sometimes that’s true....sometimes it isn’t.
This isn’t me saying I think vaccines caused ASD in my children. But vaccine damage is real and the sooner we stopped not allowing people a voice or reducing their experience down to memes and jokes and listened and reassured and were honest, the sooner we might get somewhere in this topic. Most people who don’t vaccinate aren’t mental rabid anti-vaccinators, they’re just normal people who are afraid.

Lweji · 06/03/2019 23:44

But the trouble with the party line on mumsnet is that the mainstream scientists can’t ever be questioned and if other scientists question them, then they’re quacks and must be discredited at all costs

You misunderstand science. Even on another thread, I pointed out that scientists question each other all the time. It's how science is done.
But there's questioning based on rationality and there's questioning based on "I'm guessing".

As I also pointed out before, all sorts of vaccines are debated, and research is done to improve existing vaccines, from delivery to the antigens used.

However, actual and intelligent debate about any vaccine is impossible with someone who doesn't even acknowledge that germs cause infectious diseases.

BlooShampoo · 06/03/2019 23:52

I actually think that functioning labels really hinder discussions about autism because when autistic people try to explain things, they’re often met with non-autistic people saying, “oh but you have MILD autism. HIGH FUNCTIONING autism. You can’t speak for SEVERELY autistic people.”
It’s a really unhelpful false dichotomy. People’s functioning levels can change or fluctuate in their life - a lot of autistic adults who are smugly dismissed as naive and “high-functioning” actually WERE minimally-verbal children with high support needs. Autistic children become autistic adults, and, just like non-autistic people, they change as they grow up. Even if an autistic person has always been “high functioning” (ugh), they will have a lot of shared traits and experiences with “low functioning” (again, ugh) autistic people - even if this is not obvious to the people telling us that we have no idea what we’re talking about.

donaldducksgranonceremoved · 07/03/2019 01:19

Dying is at one end of the spectrum, but it can cause deafness, blindness and brain damage also, as those disabilities not horrific enough fod you?!?

Just for arguments sake... let's say it wasn't autism that had historically been linked to MMR with a scare

But was deafness or blindness or brain damage

Would people still be saying "I'd rather have a deaf child" "I'd rather have a blind child" "I'd rather have a brain damaged child" than risk not vaccinating?

Just curious if it makes any difference to people who do reason it that way

AdoraBell · 07/03/2019 01:26

No reminders needed for me OP

Haven’t RTFT yet but I agree that the former doctor should be held to account for the rise in cases of measles.

OwlBeThere · 07/03/2019 02:16

@blooshampoo I totally agree they are very unhelpful labels, my daughter is ‘HF’ and with that comes it’s own challenges. My son at least doesn’t know or care or have any need for ‘fitting in’, she desperately wants to and that is heartbreaking at times.
I only use those labels for lack of any others

aurynne · 07/03/2019 02:45

I haven't found a single anti-vaxxer able to answer the simple question of why populations of unvaccinated children have exactly the same rates of autism as populations of vaccinated children, in every country where this has been checked.

Surely if vaccines caused autism you would very easily spot the decrease in unvaccinated populations by simple statistis? Especially now that we have large population samples of parents who choose not to vaccinate?

breeze44 · 07/03/2019 07:32

Traditional medicine doesn't work well at all at preventing infectious diseases. Not the kind that is preventable by vaccination.

I just reread my post and realised it is unclear. I didn't mean that traditional medicine could be used to prevent infectious diseases, I was actually arguing in favour of getting vaccinations. I meant (but didn't explain properly) that some traditional medicine is successful as a treatment for some illnesses, so it shouldn't be used as a way to ridicule anti-vaxxers.

Lweji · 07/03/2019 07:43

Would people still be saying "I'd rather have a deaf child" "I'd rather have a blind child" "I'd rather have a brain damaged child" than risk not vaccinating?

No. I'd be saying that vaccines demonstrably don't cause deafness or blindness or brain damage. Or a lot less than the actual disease.

And remember that for MMR diseases, without vaccine it was almost inevitable that children would get them (hence termed childhood diseases). Or the child would be exposed pretty much for sure.
So, exposed to illness or exposed to vaccine, no brainer.

Lweji · 07/03/2019 07:48

Just out of interest, Cath, why do you feel the need to believe that AIDS is not caused by HIV? Or that germs don't cause disease?
It certainly isn't a rational conclusion, so you do feel a need to believe the few that argue for a non germ origin of disease.
What is the advantage in believing it?
And what role do you think hygiene pays in protecting you from illness if it's not caused by germs?

Cathmidston · 07/03/2019 07:49

Alternative to germ theory:
Bechamp recognised that the microbes were present in people before, during and after the disease period and thus it was incorrect to think that simply 'killing germs' would end disease.

We have more microbial cells on our body than we have of our 'own' (non microbial) cells (cells that contain specific genetic information about the human form, rather than about the microbial form). Bechamp alluded to this reality, though he was unable to demonstrate it at that time in full.

Pasteur: "Each disease is caused by its own infecting microbe, therefore coming from outside."

Consequence: Kill the germ and avoid contamination.

Bechamp: "Disease is caused by the nature of the soil (the cellular environment of the individual human carrier), the microbes are always there." (E.g. The presence of diseases related to microbes is reliant on the underlying health of the human.)

Consequence: 'Address the soil' - Look at the nutrition, water, physical living conditions, physical stress/relaxation and toxins/sanitation affecting the person to eliminate microbe related disease.

Which Paradigm Was Adopted?
Clearly, Pasteur's version of reality was more widely adopted into life and this is partially due to the idea that 'someone else made you ill' is more psychologically palatable than the idea that you, through your own inadequate action or life conditions caused the disease yourself.

These events took place during the industrial revolution, when people were moving into cities and living in cramped conditions. It was far easier for the wealthy 'establishment' to deal with the idea that people were making each other ill than that the illness was due to poor nutrition, lack of food and other sanitation issues.

In other words, the Pasteur version of reality was more CONVENIENT to those who claimed 'authority'.

Despite the reality that we now know that disease related microbes can be carried by most/all of us without us getting ill (Flu, Mumps, Chicken Pox & Fungal infections being examples of less dangerous forms), Bechamp's message that the overall health of the individual is the determining factor regarding whether disease manifests or not - is still not widely understood.

Cellular Immune Response
Dr. Merrill W. Chase & Dr. Karl Landsteiner (nobel laureate winner) discovered in the 1940s that in addition to the antibody component of the immune system, there is a cellular component too. It was shown that in many instances the cellular components are more important than antibodies.

People who have an inability to produce antibodies are still able to heal from disease organisms, however, without cellular immunity they are far less able to.

If antibody response (the realm of vaccines) were the most important aspect of immunity, we would have far more effective vaccines than we do. Antonio Coutinho, Director of Immunology Research at institutes in France (CNRS) and Portugal (IGC) states that:

Centuries after Jenner's 'vaccination' and more than 100 years after Louis Pasteur's principle of 'attenuated' vaccines, we are still totally devoid of vaccines against chronic infections and against a large number of acute infections.

Several decades of 'DNA technology' and 'biotechnology' have failed to produce the new effective, 'no risk' vaccines that were expected.

Most vaccines used today are of the 'conventional' type, many of which were discovered when we had: 'little knowledge of immunology' and 'absolutely no information' on the sells and molecules of the immune system.

Obviously, the lack of clinical success means that our understanding of the immune system, despite decades of intense research, still remains elusive...

European Molecular Biology Organisation (EMBO) Reports 2003
Despite a vast number of studies and papers being published on immunology, constantly - the results and improvements are minima

Lweji · 07/03/2019 07:53

introducing all kinds of bacteria and foreign protein into the blood stream, repeated transfusions etc etc etc

I'm curious, surely bacteria can't cause disease. It must be the token antibiotic treatment that causes it. No?

Unlike transfusions. Of course getting other people's blood repeatedly is only likely to weaken our own immune systems. HmmConfused somehow... I'd love to know the biological mechanism.

Lweji · 07/03/2019 07:56

People like Cath and Mullis should be criminally charged for trying to convince people HIV doesn't cause AIDS.
It fucking leads to deaths of infected people who end up refusing treatment.