To think my nephew is dangerous?

[bumsandtums]

I love my nephew with all my heart. He is 11 and lives with my sister who is his mother.

We are a very close family & he spends time with my family on a weekly basis. We love having him here and my children & husband are besotted with him.

Over the years starting since he was 7 various claims have been made.
It started with several claims that family members had said malicious or hurtful things to him when they hadn't. He even said to my sister that I had called him a 'waste of space'. Which obviously was not true. It then progressed to claims that people had nibbed/pinched him and that my children and his grandmother and grandfather were constantly poking and harassing him.

The family as a whole tried to nip this in the bud as soon as possible as eventually the family and my sisters friends were afraid to spend time with him alone.

In September 2018 he claimed that my sisters best friend who has babysat him regularly for his whole life threw him down the stairs. It (obviously) launched weeks worth of investigation and pain until he eventually admitted after weeks of pain for everyone involved that it was not true. He had fallen down accidently after not hanging onto the rain and she was only there to help and bring him to hospital.

Nomatter the claims we have tried to believe him each time and always always tried to find the whole story.

Today he came to our house, as per usual, to play with my children. After coming home from the park we all went inside and he went back out to the car to get his wellies so he continue playing in the garden. My husband arrived home just as he was opening the car (I couldn't see any of this). He grabs the wellies, closes the door and starts to run back inside but, slips and falls forward leaving a nasty gash on his cheek and eyebrow. He runs in and immediately starts screaming that my husband punched him. The children & I are shocked.

My husband states straight away that this didn't happen and we can all check the driveway camera and my nephews story changes instantly to it didn't happen and he starts to cry realising he's been caught out.

I pack up his stuff and drive him back to his mother and explain everything and say that I can't trust him. Someday he will tell a lie that will ruin somebodys life. He's not welcome to my home and I will not let any of my children spent time with him individually. AIBU?

Is there any chance you could put cameras up as pp have suggested?

This child needs a referral to CAMHS which could be done via GP. Meantime no adults should be in his company on their own. From that point of view he is dangerous. And I would even suggest trying to get all the unsubstantiated claims put on a social care record so that this can form part of the picture if his pattern of behaviour continues. Also agree this is likely linked to low self esteem and/or early childhood attachment issues or trauma. I do wonder if a lot of different people have looked after him.....

Personally if I was ops dh and my wife had to check I hadn’t punched her pathological lying dn then I would be seriously questioning the trust element of my marriage

If I'd been accused of something like this I'd expect my DH to trust me but also to check. There are way too many stories of people who noone ever suspected - and also the op would want cast iron proof before she has to pass on really hard news to her sister.

Do his lies usually involve himself getting hurt or are there others too? Does it usually involve violence carried out in some form or does he lie about anything and everything?

There might be dynamics at play from early life here - his dad not being in his life might have impacted on your sisters early attachment with him. Your close family might have (not saying this is the case) overcompensated and at times indulged him, meaning that his sense of security hinges on having someones attention. He might have a big father shaped hole in his heart.
I wouldn’t tackle or confront the lying directly - when he is an older adolescent he might be able to reflect on it more. You could teach him face saving ways to apologise and get him in the habit of saying ‘I’m sorry I don’t know why I said that it’s not true’.
You might struggle to access it, but seeing a child psychotherapist might be a good thing to do, do try some repair before he garners too much reputational damage. Ask the gp.

And is it always people close to him family and friends wise or does he say things about others who are not so close? Teachers, neighbours, children in the class or school etc etc?

Oliversmumsarmy - How can you know this? Does the past always form the future. I agree absolutely it is a consequence of crying wolf one too many times. However, there is now an element of substance uncovered by the police as they investigate.

Lyralalala has it right.

I would enlist help from school - they can make referrals to camhs,

Probably little sly but should have waited to see the extent of his lies then said well its on camera

I think you need to cut him out and have absolutely nothing to do with him.
I certainly would never allow him inside my house again, supervised or not. That is your families home and somewhere every member of the family should feel safe. Nobody is safe with him.

Your sister needs to take her head out of the sand and actually parent her own child instead of pawning his dangerous ass off on anyone that would have him. Her crying and crying and crying isn’t addressing her lying child. She is totally responsible for these situations too because given her sons history and the fact he is a compulsive dangerous liar, she should not be leaving him alone with other adults. One wrong word from him and your reputation and life, and that of your children, could be in ruins.

I would personally cut them both off, and when she has to deal with his lies and manipulative behaviors without having other adults pick up the responsibility, you’ll probably find she’ll be a lot quicker to get him help.

Stuckforthefourthtime

I was meaning that op dismissed her dn immediately then showed him proof of his lies as opposed to for a few moments giving dn the power that he had ops mind in turmoil before checking then showing dn had lied. IYSWIM

Years ago Dp was accused of something.
I immediately knew Dp couldn’t have done what he was being accused of I didn’t have to check anything because I knew him.

He was arrested at work lost his job and then weeks later the police did a sting opperation expecting Dp to turn up. (He knew nothing of what was going on) they found the guilty party. A person who Dp worked closely with and who had lied to the police turned up.

When he got home after being arrested initially and he told me what he was being accused of I said that it was bloody ridiculous. Dp is scrupulously honest.

If I had waited for the police to check and clear his name I know our relationship would not have survived.

OP I feel terribly sorry for your sister, and indeed your nephew who is clearly troubled. You have had good advice here, defo re helping him see a psychologist (I am one but not specialising in this field) l just hope he gets the help he clearly needs

Personally if I was ops dh and my wife had to check I hadn’t punched her pathological lying dn then I would be seriously questioning the trust element of my marriage

If I'd been accused of something like this I'd expect my DH to trust me but also to check. There are way too many stories of people who noone ever suspected - and also the op would want cast iron proof before she has to pass on really hard news to her sister.

This is very true. My DM didn't have the slightest inkling of what my F was up to when she wasn't in the house/was asleep. And there are so many stories like ours. Or, worse, when the non abusing parent has refused to believe their child, because apparently their DP would never do anything like that.

No one ever knows another person well enough to be sure they're the kind of person they claim to be.

Oliversmummy

The OP didn't say she doubted her DH. She said she and the children were shocked by what the DN said. That doesn't imply any disbelief of the husband at all.

The fact the friend was investigated - it doesn't say who the DN told or who reported it to be investigated so the child's mother may have known her child was most likely lying, but you still have to check these things out.

This wasnt some random stranger.

And this is precisely why allegations have to be checked out. Children are more likely to be harmed by people known to them than they are random strangers.

Also as I said for the sake of the adult involved it needs to be investigated properly to completely clear their name, and have that noted.

@bumsandtums This makes for a very interesting read OP;

www.nytimes.com/1988/05/17/science/lies-can-point-to-mental-disorders-or-signal-normal-growth.html

Like a PP said, one of my first thoughts was actually what a vulnerable child your nephew now is because he is so unlikely to be believed if someone does harm him in any way.

I do hope he can access some sort of therapeutic support. The only child I know who tells a lot of lies (although more of the fantastist/minor variety) was abused, although the extent is not clear, partly because she is regarded as such an 'unreliable' witness - she is 7. Her abuser is no longer in her life at all but I don't think she receives the help she really needs because the situation is so unclear.

Did you look at CCTV footage before you told your DH you believed his version? After the lie about trusted babysitter pushing him down stairs, would you have believed your husband’s version without evidence?
A worrying dynamic has developed in that as a family you trust his version of events until it’s proved wrong and as others have suggested this gives him too much power with trusted adults pleading to be believed whilst he, by your omission, enjoys watching their pain to prove their innocence.
I understand the need to believe a child’s version, but sadly he is now manipulating this, with disastrous consequences for everyone.
I wonder if there was a time your sister wasn’t believed by your parents about something in her childhood? Because the insistence that the child has to be believed even if evidence shows otherwise is a possible root cause? The trusted babysitter should never have been doubted, there should be no doubt that he fell wasn’t punched. As a family you were initially showing true love believing him and you seem to believe that this is still the most important way to show him you love him, but he has twisted this and the default setting now needs to be that trusted adults are believed first.
I understand why you are protecting your family by distancing yourselves, but this isn’t the answer as this vicious circle is escalating and he risks being totally isolated.
Given everything you know about him you need to change your approach.
Imagine yesterday - DN runs in from drive to tell you DH punched him. DH arriving behind shakes head and mimes he fell. You hug DN suggest how horrid it is to fall and we all feel a bit silly when it happens, but it’s normal. Let’s get you cleaned up and get an ice pack and watch a cartoon together until you get over the shock of falling, it does give you a fright doesn’t it?
No mention of lie, no dialogue about DH said he didn’t. If he maintains the lie it is ignored and he is shown love and compassion for the fall. Any time he mentions punch, you don’t even use the word ‘lie’ you reply mentioning the fall. You stick to what actually happened ‘he fell’.

Good luck OP, this is a horrible situation for you all.

Get him to wear a go pro camera. That way whenever you makes a claim of abuse the video footage can prove it to be a lie. Wonder if it would stop him lying??

I do think psychiatric help is needed

Edit he makes claim not you

@Fabaunt has hit the nail on the head

a proper investigation clears a name much better than a 'oh well, that kid lies' does

That's very true, but an awful lot of life-changing damage can be caused while an investigation's carried out and the default of believing that a victim's telling the truth can cause mud to stick. I'm absolutely not suggesting that default is wrong, only that there's often a price to pay for it

I also wonder how any investigation into possible past harm to the DN is going to work - as said, I'm no expert but isn't there a risk that he'll just seize the opportunity to spout yet more lies?

The bit you say about him enjoying seeing others suffer is quite chilling

Yes, it's a very emotive statement to make about an 11 year old child. It's also pure conjecture.

No matter how well OP knows this boy she's not inside his head, she can't possibly know and understand his motivations for saying these things- I doubt very much he understands them himself. Children aren't simply born with a cruel streak. If this boy derives some kind of satisfaction from watching others suffer then there is a reason for that. Something in his environment, his past or something he has seen or believes that has skewed his view of himself, of adults and the world around him. I have worked with many, many children and adolescents who frequently told lies and made allegations against adults. The one thing they all had in common is that they didn't feel safe. All behaviour is communication and to dismiss this child as some kind of sadist who likes to see people suffer is not only wrong but will also keep the problem going as he is not going to stop until he is heard.

Imagine yesterday - DN runs in from drive to tell you DH punched him. DH arriving behind shakes head and mimes he fell. You hug DN suggest how horrid it is to fall and we all feel a bit silly when it happens, but it’s normal. Let’s get you cleaned up and get an ice pack and watch a cartoon together until you get over the shock of falling, it does give you a fright doesn’t it? No mention of lie, no dialogue about DH said he didn’t. If he maintains the lie it is ignored and he is shown love and compassion for the fall. Any time he mentions punch, you don’t even use the word ‘lie’ you reply mentioning the fall. You stick to what actually happened ‘he fell’.

This would kind of work if the DN didn't have years of telling lies about other people who said/did bad things to him.

That's very true, but an awful lot of life-changing damage can be caused while an investigation's carried out and the default of believing that a victim's telling the truth can cause mud to stick. I'm absolutely not suggesting that default is wrong, only that there's often a price to pay for it

There is a price to pay sometimes yes, but mud sticks much harder with no investigation. It also puts the adult in a vulnerable position if they remains in contact with the child, or potentially in a position where the child can make an allegation, perhaps historical.

As he usually comes to your house op, I believe you should be part of the family therapy, you should be aware first hand how to react, how to help, not cut him off when he and your sister need help