Is it offensive or am I being silly?

[CocaColaaa]

Just a quick one but NC for this as I guess its outing.

My childrens school are doing world book day and the “theme” is peter pan, its given some suggestions of characters you can dress up as and one is tigerlilly. I was thinking of chosing that one for DD as I hate all of the tinkerbell dresses but ive heard its offensive to dress up as certain things. Native americans being on of them. Is it offensive or am I being silly? Why oh why do they have to do themes and not just let people pick their favourite book characters 😩

I don't really understand your response sorry.

I'd say a caricature would be a cartoon that gives a deliberately distorted presentation of someone (which might include exaggerated features associated with a certain race). If I saw something like that displayed next to golliwogs, I'd probably assume it was intended to be offensive.

A cartoon isn't necessarily the same as a caricature. There are cartoon depictions of people from various groups where I'd probably be able to tell the race they are meant to be (if they're wearing a skull-cap, for example) that aren't caricatures.

I'd be looking critically at any depictions or a member of any racial group if displayed near golliwogs, but I don't think it necessarily holds true that the image had to be a caricature.

He said it was a cartoon of a hook nosed old Jewish man. He used the word caricature. Happy to apologise if it was a realistic representation of a Jewish family only identifiable by ritual clothing.....

Fair enough Bernard, I only skimmed the relevant posts as I couldn't see the article. I'd have made the same assumption as you:

Pretty gob-smacked that a poster has trotted out an example of someone who has Golliwog figurines on display as an example of why we shouldn't, for one minute, risk being culturally sensitive.

Hilarious, in a are-you-for-real kind of way....

No he didn’t say it was a caricature, he said he was caricatured as a racist because of it. The point he was making is the one you’re all obliging him by proving. The point that the vicariously offended are eager to see reasons for taking offence everywhere. How can a Jew be anti Semitic?

The golliwogs are a side issue which he happily concedes are offensive and were on display by mistake.

“The point he was making is the one you’re all obliging him by proving. The point that the vicariously offended are eager to see reasons for taking offence everywhere. How can a Jew be anti Semitic?”

Did the person who objected to the picture know that the owner of the house was Jewish?

I really don’t know but, the picture’s the same whoever it belongs to. It’s still a man, a baby and cat.

And “hook nosed old Jewish man” sounds like a caricature to me- particularly if you know what Alan Coren looked like.
I repeat. If I was in a rented house which had a collection of gollywogs and a cartoon of a “hook nosed old Jewish man” then I would certainly have concerns.

“It’s still a man, a baby and cat.”
A “hook nosed old Jewish man”.

As you say, context is all. A picture like that on the wall of a Jewish friend? Fine-up to them. A picture like that in conjunction with a collection of gollywogs on the wall of an Air B&B? Not fine.

The golliwogs are a side issue which he happily concedes are offensive and were on display by mistake.

They're not a 'side issue'. They prove he's an idiot.

Thymeout

Thank you for your very interesting post. I also felt a little nostalgic when you wrote about County Hall and Comfort Herself! I agree strongly that my experience has probably led me to feel more ambiguous about what constitutes racism. (And that isn’t a boast or a claim to be an expert.)

I think it’s quite interesting that the people who believe the tigerlilly costume is problematic talk about the wider issues and how other people feel, how other people are affected. People who don’t feel it’s an issue tend to talk about their own experience and their own feelings and their own convenience.

“All experience is an arch wherethrough gleams that untravelled world ...”

My point is, recrudescence that it’s not your experience that matters. Interesting you would choose a quote about expanding horizons on a thread where people are so unwilling to see a different perspective to their own.

Exactly.

Coming onto a thread as a white person, or a member of a privileged country, and thinking your opinion or experience carries equal weight as someone directly affected....

I mean, the sheer arrogance.

Those of us on the this side of the debate aren't saying 'we're right'. We're saying 'we'll be guided by the people directly affected, and err on the side of caution'.

The other side says, 'no, I'm right, and those directly affected are wrong'.

Forgive us if we dismiss you outright.

You’ve all consistently maintained you’re right and everyone else is wrong. And you have the audacity to call other people arrogant. Perhaps a little honest self examination might not go amiss.

There’s been no willingness to concede that anyone else might just have a point, just single minded, head down assertions that you’re right and anyone who doesn’t agree with you is an idiot. Have you persuaded anyone to your point of view? There doesn’t seem much evidence of it.

Yes, I think I'm right to listen to indigenous voices on things that matter to them.

And as for this:

"There’s been no willingness to concede that anyone else might just have a point, just single minded, head down assertions that you’re right and anyone who doesn’t agree with you is an idiot. Have you persuaded anyone to your point of view? There doesn’t seem much evidence of it."

Right back at you!

Saying “right back at you” isn’t a terribly convincing rebuttal of another poster’s claim.

To clarify, if it's so confusing for you.

Everything you asserted with regards to the people arguing the opposite side to you, applies equally to you.

Thank you for proving my point, if not eloquently, decisively.

And thank you for proving mine.

But alsohuman there are first-hand accounts of Native American people on this thread who say they find it offensive - how could you possibly claim it isn’t?

Also the ‘single minded’ accusations are pretty funny when your main contributor to this thread, the one taking one for the team, actuallly said ‘I know it’s offensive but I’m going to keep doing it until they ban the costume. My kids my rules’

I haven’t.

So you agree it’s offensive and best avoided?