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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Is it offensive or am I being silly?

999 replies

CocaColaaa · 02/03/2019 15:57

Just a quick one but NC for this as I guess its outing.

My childrens school are doing world book day and the “theme” is peter pan, its given some suggestions of characters you can dress up as and one is tigerlilly. I was thinking of chosing that one for DD as I hate all of the tinkerbell dresses but ive heard its offensive to dress up as certain things. Native americans being on of them. Is it offensive or am I being silly? Why oh why do they have to do themes and not just let people pick their favourite book characters 😩

OP posts:
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DoneLikeAKipper · 05/03/2019 15:16

it's ok I am not easily offended.

Oh, you’re not offended by something. Therefore anyone who is must be wrong then. Or perhaps they have a point, as illustrated several times here.

We dressed up (can't remember if it was a play or something - but I remember making a gas mask box and being the child sent away to live with another family) and learned about it.

Yes, but this particular scenario with Peter Pan/TigerLily isn’t a ‘learning opportunity’ is it? Are the school going to use this opportunity to teach the children about horrible stereotypes and cultural appropriation? I highly doubt it - if this thread is anything to go by, their parents would give the teacher a bollocking in the exact same way the ‘anti-pc’ posters have here. Some bullshit about ‘just kids dressing up and what does it matter’.

Pumperthepumper · 05/03/2019 15:19

insecure but an Australian playing William Wallace does? Sure 👍

PickledLimes · 05/03/2019 15:42

I forgot to say thank you for sharing those videos with us, Hoodathunkit. I'm interested to learn more so I'll watch them later when I can concentrate on them.

myrtleWilson · 05/03/2019 15:54

pickled my attempt at humour was misplaced-sorry! Your post about "it's fine it's in England ergo no offence" summed up aspects of this thread for me
It is offensive
It's not offensive
Here's some evidence of how it is offensive
I don't like that evidence can I see some different evidence
Sure, here's some more
Oh... well they're unlikely to be in my town so am sure no offence will be felt when I act unkindly so toodle pips

PickledLimes · 05/03/2019 15:56

It's ok, Myrtle. I knew that you weren't attacking me. I was just apologising for going into a full blown rant.

Filbert7 · 05/03/2019 16:03

@CarolinePooter

Would you call a black person the 'n word'?
Would you dress up as 'a black person', blackface and all?

If not, why not? Did you read opinion surveys of black communities? Were the results conclusive for you? It wasn't just the 'shouty' ones complaining?

Or do your data-gathering requirements only apply to indigenous Americans?

cometinmoominvalley · 05/03/2019 16:45

I went to see Peter Pan as a pantomime at Christmas... which was horrendous anyway but I was really uncomfortable about Tiger Lily being an obviously racist stereotype. Not the same as the question over WBD costume but I do wonder what is the best thing to do? Change the character? Edit her out? Genuine question as I'm not sure what to do.

Also, is it any different (less bad) over here than it would be to do the same thing in America?

SparkiePolastri · 05/03/2019 17:56

You can't change the character. You can't edit her out. You can't ban the book. You can't burn the book.

People should continue to read the book.

For the avoidance of doubt, there should be no banning, burning or editing out.

You can just engage your brain for a second or two and consider whether dressing your child up as her is the best, most sensitive thing to do.

Or, whether instead, your need to insist that she is not a racist stereotype and your need to dress your child as her is The Most Important Thing.

If it is, then so be it.

It is only you and your child that will be judged by other parents and teachers. It's likely no actual Native Americans will be offended.

recrudescence · 05/03/2019 18:09

It's likely no actual Native Americans will be offended

Good to have this confirmed.

Filbert7 · 05/03/2019 18:21

It's been repeatedly acknowledged throughout the thread.

SparkiePolastri · 05/03/2019 18:28

Good to have this confirmed.

Because there will almost certainly be none at a UK school.

You get that, right?

You also get that other parents and teachers will likely be silently judging?

DoneLikeAKipper · 05/03/2019 18:38

Because there will almost certainly be none at a UK school.

Ohhhh that’s ok then! I went to a school with no black kids, so I guess with them not around we could have dressed up in black face without offending anyone.

I know a British person married to someone of Native American ancestry. Any children they may have will obviously also be of this ancestry, living in the UK. You don’t know if there are children from these circumstances around, however rare it may be. Regardless, this is about teaching children about respecting cultures, so in future they don’t think it’s ok to do similar things.

SparkiePolastri · 05/03/2019 18:45

Done - I'm on your side. I do not think it's OK!

I live in a country with an indigenous population - I can't think of anything more inappropriate than sending my kid into school dressed as a such a character.

For those that INSIST that they need to be able to send their kid on, they can console themselves with the knowledge that they probably won't directly upset any Native Americans (obviously, as you say, they can't be sure - but as they don't actually care one jot, I don't think that matters).

However, what they can be assured of, is that they will be being judged by people with any cop on.

Filbert7 · 05/03/2019 18:46

@DoneLikeAKipper, I don't know if you're arguing with @SparkiePolastri, but they're on the same side as you. Yes, it's unlikely that any Native Americans would witness the costume (and therefore be personally offended), no that does not make it okay.

SparkiePolastri · 05/03/2019 18:49

Thanks @Filbert7 Smile

DoneLikeAKipper · 05/03/2019 19:08

@Filbert7 my bad, didn’t read it properly! Apologise @SparkiePolastri.

Thymeout · 05/03/2019 19:20

Recrudescence - it's interesting that both of us have spent our careers in inner London comprehensives and seem generally to agree. You can hardly have such a diverse group of nationalities. In the same class, I've taught Sunni and Shia Muslims and Kurdish refugees from Saddam Hussein. Turkish and Greek Cypriots. Black and white Zimbawians. As you can see, some very obvious flashpoints if we were to look back to past hostilities. The emphasis from County Hall was very much on recognising the value of individual cultures but emphasising the common humanity we all shared.

I wonder if it gives us a different perspective on what racism actually is. I once had a black Londoner of Caribbean descent who objected to reading the class novel, Comfort Herself, about a black South African child. She took against the book on the first page. 'I'm not reading this. It's racist.' I asked why and was told 'Because it uses the word black. Black is racist.' Fortunately, the rest of the class put her right. I've no doubt she had reason to associate the word 'black' with abuse - hence her confusion. But she was wrong.

Pps have said that dressing up as someone from another race is racist. As if there's no argument about it. I disagree. Bertrand's reaction to the description of Coren's artwork seems to be on the same level. It's anti-semitic because it shows an obviously Jewish man holding a baby with a cat? It's anti-semitic because it's a representation of a Jew? And the illustrations in Little Black Sambo are grotesque caricatures? Admittedly, I doubt whether the author was a professional illustrator, but why are they grotesque? Would they have been less grotesque if the little boy had a lighter skin or more European features? As pp said, 'it's just a picture of a black child'.And, imo, there is nothing whatsoever racist in the text. Just as there's nothing racist about a little girl wanting to pretend she's from a different culture.

Native Americans. I can only speak about the Navajo. (At one point in my life I wanted to join the Peace Corps and volunteer to teach in a Navajo school. Unfortunately, they don't accept Brits.) From my reconnaissance trip, I came to the conclusion that there were 3 types of Navajo: those who wanted to pursue a traditional lifestyle on the Res, a bit like the Amish, but with more mod cons. Those who wanted to live a larger life as Americans, go to college, take what opportunities came their way and be like other people. And those unfortunates who lived a sort of half-life, one foot in the Res, because they couldn't afford to live anywhere else, earning minimum wage in the border towns like Gallop, because they hadn't the education or the skills to go further abroad. I think they would probably all have differing views on the subject of this thread. It's a hugely complex subject and opinions vary according to where you've come from and where you hope to be going.

All of them had more important things to worry about, with budget cuts, alcoholism, encroaching drug dealing - I saw LA gang graffiti on the Res- and forever defending their land from greedy developers with their eyes on mineral rights. All most likely worse now under Trump.

So, again, there's still a huge amount to do that will make a real difference. Don't sweat the small stuff.

Pumperthepumper · 05/03/2019 19:35

ThymeOut you’ve now said some variation of ‘ignore minor racial issues’ three times- do you honestly not see any problems with that? Do you genuinely think it’s worth ignoring cultural appropriation to only deal with racially aggravated murders? Or is it possible that you can actually do both and ‘sweating the small stuff’ actually helps contribute to an overall picture of ‘unacceptable’?

SparkiePolastri · 05/03/2019 19:56

'Sweating the small stuff' as you call it, are the easy, positive wins, that everyone can do, without any effort whatsoever, to effect change. Confused

You may have taught in an inner city comprehensive, but have you learnt, lived and worked cheek by jowl with indigenous people?

PickledLimes · 05/03/2019 19:57

I have no idea what race(s) you are but Why are people boasting of their teaching credentials as though teaching children from a variety of cultures and countries means that you're an expert in racism? You can be a teacher in an incredibly diverse London school and still have racist ideas. Yes it may give you some insight into some race issues but I don't know that it qualifies you to decide that the so called 'small stuff' doesn't matter. I used to work with asylum seekers from who knows how many nations and yes I learned a lot but I wouldn't claim to be anything close to an expert on the issues that they face here and that they faced back in their country of birth.

BertrandRussell · 05/03/2019 19:58

“Bertrand's reaction to the description of Coren's artwork seems to be on the same level. It's anti-semitic because it shows an obviously Jewish man holding a baby with a cat? It's anti-semitic because it's a representation of a Jew?”

I did not say this. I said that it was obviously a caricature of a Jewish stereotype (because otherwise how would anyone have known it was a Jew) and in conjunction with a collection of golliwogs I would be uncomfortable. Do not, as they say, twist my words.

SparkiePolastri · 05/03/2019 19:59

@DoneLikeAKipper - no apology necessary, just appreciative of another reasoned, sensible, sensitive voice on this thread!

Filbert7 · 05/03/2019 20:04

ThymeOut - I haven't gone back to re-read, but I'm not sure that many have said it's racist to dress up as someone from another race. In any event, Tigerlily is not someone from another race, she is a white characture, from a time when Native Americans were not viewed as equals, of a Native American.

I'm sure if this thread was about a little girl wanting to dress up in a costume that actually represented the dress of a particular indigenous group, there would have been a debate about cultural appropriation, but that isn't where we're at.

Re. Little Black Sambo, there appear to be various different versions illustrated differently. Some with Sambo illustrated in minstrel-esque fashion, others that look more like an actual black child.

Re. 'Not sweating the small stuff'. As we've seen in this thread, some indigenous Americans do object to the Indian stereotype. I don't feel it's for you or I to tell them they can't be offended by it. You may have met some, and decided you're able to assume their views, but I'm going to give greater weight to the voices of indigenous people in this thread, and that I've encountered in person, than your assumptions.

Re. the various other problems in some indigenous communities; there is little I, or other posters in this thread, can practically do about budget cuts, alcoholism, suicide rates, etc. One thing that is easily within my power is not to dress up as an 'Indian'. It might be insignificant to you, but it certainly isn't to all indigenous people.

Filbert7 · 05/03/2019 20:13

BertrandRussell - I haven't seen the picture, and I'm a little too lazy to skip back in the thread to re-read about it, but there could be markers that someone is Jewish without it being a characature (clothing, for example).

BertrandRussell · 05/03/2019 20:17

He said it was a cartoon.......