To not let daughter attend?

[Mypoorboobs]

Daughter has an event this evening, she’s been so naughty I told her she was on her last chance or wouldn’t be going.

She then pushed the baby over backwards and laughed so I said that was it and she’s not going.

DP got home and said she can go as she’s been looking forward to it and we’ve already paid for it. I’ve said no, her behaviour is never going to improve if she doesn’t understand her actions have consequences. Who is right?

She’s 4 and not attending wouldnt be letting anyone down. We were planning to get some things that desperately need doing done while she was gone. (She’s a huge handful and can’t do anything with her here)

WWYD?

Reading about your daughter made me think of my son. He was exactly like this at 4/5. Before that too. No punishments worked, no matter what we tried. He started reception and it was pure hell. His behaviour became worse. But then he started in year 1 and he seemed to change over night. He’s 6 now, he can still be very stubborn and sometimes punishments don’t work, but I’d say 90% of the time now he’s well behaved and what you’d expect of a 6 year old. Though sometimes that 10% does come all at once. So I just wanted to say, it does get better, hang in there. And don’t think she hates you, a lot of the time kids take it out on those they feel closest to

I have outlined what I would do further up the thread. There is not a standard direct consequencefor each situation it's more about dealing with the particular situation and particular child with the aim of helping the child to behave more appropriately next time.

So there's no natural or direct consequence of that action then? It really doesn't matter about the particular child, the action has been described. Apparently there is a direct consequence or natural consequence for every action and that's how children lean about appropriate behaviour, but I see no natural consequence to that action, except the baby being upset.

What I did with DD (and I'm no fucking expert ,I still have no idea what I'm doing half of the time) ..
1.used naughty step only for extreme behaviour. I only actually had to use it quite rarely but it worked as reminder when I could see things were escalating. Think last time I used it was when she was 4. She's now 7.
2.natural consequence. Examples: throw a toy in a tantrum and it breaks,in the bin and not get another one. If I asked her to tidy and she didn't,anything on the floor gets hoovered/swept up. Did something unsafe in the garden ,then she has to come in as I can't trust her and atm I can't supervise . And so on.

1. Emphasised telling the truth..yes I've let things go when she's been honest straight away.

4.Reinforced the idea that everyone makes mistakes and that's how we learn. By apologising to her when I get it wrong,explaining my own behaviour and reactions. 5.Everyone has bad days and that's ok. You can rage ,shout,ask for cuddles, hide away,say you've had a bad day and talk about it. What you can't do is take it out on others.

After saying all that though, if I'm entirely honest, her being a good kid is mostly down to her than me. Definitely no expertise or PHD's here.

How do you deal with the type of bad behaviour that has no "standard direct consequence" then?

Ds is an only so I'm afraid I have no experience with siblings but 'Siblings without Rivalry' is meant to be a good one if this is re-ocurring behaviour. And good old Lansbury has lots on siblings for free online quick reads.

Janet, not Angela

Hmm, give us an example @Drogosnextwife (ideally one not involving a sibling in my case as I have no experience there!)

I have a 4 year old and she most certainly understands the connection between her behavior and a delayed consequence. If you don’t follow through it’s always 10x harder the next time ime

Direct consequence for hitting the baby.

Mum gives all her attention to the baby to comfort them.
Mum is sad/disappointed.
She needs to be removed for a while if she can't be safe.
Baby might be weary of her.
Not do x activity because mum is still comforting the baby.
Not getting x snack or treat or that special drink because she can't be trusted alone with the baby. Or mum takes just the baby in the kitchen and she needs to wait on her own.

Some might seem too harsh for some,some might be too wishy washy for some. Some might make no difference. It's all about what works for the kids in question.

Ok. What is the direct consequence for a child that over hears a swear word and repeatedly used it because they find it funny? Or a child who spits or bites others after having it repeatedly explained why that's not acceptable?

YourSarcasmIsDripping

That's exactly it though, the OP had said her DD does this kind of thing a lot and she has tried everything. The punishment she set out yesterday was a last resort.

It is too long after the event for the punishment to have a real effect other than upset and confuse her. I'd just let her go and deal with the problem more quickly next time (time out, confiscation of favourite toy whatever)

Whenever DS has used a swear word he's heard I ignore it and he doesn't use it again. Acting shocked gives it power. If he kept using it (he's done this once) I would explain how that's a grown up word and not for kids to use. If people hear him using it they will be upset and it doesn't make him sound nice. It worked here.
Spitting and biting. Only happened once or twice with us and not repeatedly, but I would remove him from the situation (say it's to a friend he's playing with) and explain why he can't currently be trusted to play with anyone, that spitting and biting is wrong, mean behaviour. How would it make him feel if someone spit at or bit him? Horrid. Why does he want to make X feel horrid? It's a mean behaviour and I know he's not a mean kid, not at all, so why did he need to do that? If he's feeling angry he needs to let me know or get away from what is making him feel angry. Bite a pillow if he feels an impulse to bite, but never hurt another person. It worked here hence not had the repeated behaviour.

Sorry I meant "can't be trusted to play with X right now, if he's biting", not "anyone".

And that would be how I would deal with it with a 4/5 year old biting in anger. Obv a 2 year old biting is a different thing!

@Drogosnextwife sorry I didn't mean to make it sound like OP was wrong in her decision. I commented when she first posted that it's ok to do it,and more importantly if she threatened it she needs to follow through.

Tbh for repeated behaviour natural consequences wouldn't be enough for me and I'd go stricter...naughty step,privileges removed etc. I think (not a professional remember?) that some behaviours are more serious than others and require more serious consequences.

I wouldn't say that was a consequence of the action of biting, spitting or swearing. It's just removing the child from the situation and explaining why it's inappropriate. Which is exactly what most people would do, I know that's how I would deal with those actions the first few timed, but what if, like in the OPs situation, this has happened a lot and no amount of explaining or removing the child from the situation works. There isn't really a direct consequence that will always be obvious to children that their actions weren't appropriate, some children don't really care that much if they upset someone else,or perhaps they are too young to realise that their actions have inflicted pain on someone else. Explanations are great for kids that take it on board, some kids just dont.

Well if they're too young to realise that their actions, like biting, have caused pain, then punishment is futile!

@YourSarcasmIsDripping

I know I saw your first post. I agreed with you. I just think sometimes people get to a point where they feel as though they have tried everything and have been patient and understanding and nothing works, so they come on here to ask for advice and they are belittled, judged and told they are completely wrong by the "parenting experts" like some on here.

And if they are older and continuously hurting kids without caring at all that they are causing pain then they don't get to play with other kids (and they wouldn't want to anyway) That is the natural consequence of continuously hurting other children - they don't want to play with you. But if an older kid was continuously hurting other kids and just didn't care at all, even if they were left with no playmates I would be concerned and would likely seek professional help - play therapy perhaps.

Well if they're too young to realise that their actions, like biting, have caused pain, then punishment is futile!

Yes probably, but what about the children of 4 or 5 who just don't listen to explanations or aren't really that bothered if they have upset or hurt someone else?

Perhaps cross post there - see previous

Well done op—you did the right thing. Sounds like you’ve got a smart one that will keep pushing boundaries (probably for the rest of her life), so it’s good that she feels consequences sooner rather than later. I draw the line at intentionally hurting others, especially younger. Keep working on the big things like that and try to let the smaller things go, so you’re not constantly on her back and try to move on from negatives quickly once she’s had her consequences. She does not hate you! She loves you but will probably be CEO of her own empire one day. You are doing the right thing though by teaching her right from wrong. Keep it up xx

Cross post.

What about a child who spits? And they do it because they just think it's funny or they like it?

I've genuinely not heard of an non-additional needs older child spitting because they enjoy it as a sensory thing. If they think it's funny but know it's inappropriate and continue doing it to provoke a response, assuming not giving them a response doesn't work, then they wouldn't be allowed to go out and play until they can be trusted not to do it. If they promise they won't, they go out and then do, then back home they go. Rinse and repeat. If they're spitting actually at someone then same applies as for biting.