To think perhaps schools should insist on vaccinations.

[Lovestonap]

Good animal boarding kennels etc will not take animals without their vaccinations up to date.
Should our schools be able to insist on a completed course of childhood vaccinations (up to age appropriate) before giving a space at a school? Obviously children who are unable to be vaccinated would have a medical exemption certificate. I think this would be a good idea, but then I'm wondering if this is a nanny state too far thing. Probably implications for human rights I haven't considered.

Prequelle

Thank you for that link.

Any-vaxxers always bang on about vaccine damage schemes without acknowledging the tiny numbers who successfully claim - even where the adjudication system is very generous to claimers in the evidence it will act on - or that the reason for the schemes was inexpert and wrong jury decisions with massive damages awards that began to make the manufacturers wary of producing vaccines, or that children who suffer and are disabled by disease get nothing.

@JassyRadlett excluding children and (mostly women) from school and the workforce because of a perceived threat is unethical and it is coercion. You're effectively saying, either that they can eat and pay rent next week if they submit, or they can starve and face eviction if they don't.

That isn't what we signed up for. You should not want this.

Meh, anesthesia carries risks, yet I still have to meet someone someone who is comfortable having surgery (or a tooth pulled out) whilst fully awake, to avoid "dangerous" side effects.

YANBU but equally it isn’t the children’s fault their parents have neglected to vaccinate them so I don’t feel they should be punished.

That’s the real knotty issue here, isn’t it? The kids shouldn’t be punished for their parents’ actions, but at the same time should other kids, particularly the immunocompromised, be punished?

Should the risk of a poor education due to being homeschooled by fools outweigh the risk of not being able to access education by a poorly child if herd immunity is too low, or of becoming permanently impaired or dying because a non-vaccinated child brought a preventable disease into school?

I honestly go back and forth. Right now it’s mainly academic because herd immunity is just about holding, but it’s a hard choice nonetheless.

Thanks kissingintherain. When I first researched into the vaccine court I was shocked that antivaxxers thought it actually helped their argument.

So it's better to have people spread preventable disease? How about cancer patients? Is their right to a safe environment less important than yours not to have vaccinations?

@Prequelle Sink Girl said the following:
"Vaccines carry risk, potentially life threatening risks.

Evidence please? Those with conditions that would cause negative effects as a result of vaccinations would be medically exempt.

Anaphylactic reactions to vaccinations are extremely rare, but are the reason that vaccinations are done in a medical setting rather than a community setting."

The point is that there IS evidence to back up the statement that vaccines carry risks, sometimes life-threatening ones. The recommendation of some people on this thread is that school entry should be contingent on vaccination. That pretty much makes vaccination mandatory. Unless you have a lot of money. And Sink Girl's final point about vaccinations being done in a medical setting is incorrect. Many vaccines are now being given in schools.

We all KNOW vaccines carry risks, no one has refuted that and SinkGirl very clearly went on to acknowledge one of those risks. You’re being quite unfair in trying to manipulate what she said. I too would like to see the evidence of the risks antivaxxers talk about, the ones that claim they cause a thousand and one injuries on a massive scale. When that’s not true is it,

@JassyRadlett excluding children and (mostly women) from school and the workforce because of a perceived threat is unethical and it is coercion. You're effectively saying, either that they can eat and pay rent next week if they submit, or they can starve and face eviction if they don't.

Hyperbolic nonsense. If parents make a choice with full knowledge of the consequences (I choose to take this risk for my child, the state is going to reduce the impact of my choice on other children), they can plan for those circumstances, including through housing and work, for five years down the track. Safety nets exist, and when people make the choice for an infant they are surely planning for the consequences five years down the track, just as I’m sure they’re planning what they’d do if their child was permanently damaged by measles encephalopathy, which is one of the risks they have assumed for their child.

Your scenario is much more applicable to that child with suddenly and permanent measles damage, and also to a child with a suddenly emerging medical condition who is no longer able to access education because of the risk of disease.

That isn't what we signed up for. You should not want this.

It is exactly the social contract I signed up for: being a member of society comes with rights and responsibilities. The governments we elect determine the limits of both; of wr disagree with them we vote them out.

Please be anti-gravity now, please, pretty please!

yes the government acknowledged it because that’s what they do when there’s a genuine issue, there was a bad batch which can happen with ANY drug and is an unfortunate risk we take with the consumption or utilisation of ANY product we use. Last week I had to throw away a load of a certain IV antibiotic because it was a slightly off colour, it could have potentially caused harm had it been given. These sorts of things happen. It does not mean that people should be anti vaccine, it’s ludicrously stupid. Cars get recalled sometimes because of issues, do people go anti-car? Yet a bad batch of vaccines is enough to turn people tin foil hat and convince themselves there’s a conspiracy to harm. People are thick and shortsighted.

@Prequelle Honestly, your kids are vaccinated yeah? Should be allllll good then. But don't come at me with your faux concerns about other peoples kids when that is your response to my comment about vaccine injury. Lifelong disability with round the clock care because you think the chickenpox will kill you and your whole family isn't a risk people should be forced to take. What a callous thing to say.

@JassyRadlett You sound incredibly elitist.

It’s mostly boosters that are done in a school setting - a few aren’t, but are done by medical professionals with training in adverse reactions.

My kid will be vaccinated yes, like I got my brothers vaccinated.

And sorry, callous? You do realise the harm and death rates of preventable diseases far outweighs the extremely rare minority of those who have had an adverse reaction to a vaccine? I feel for those people, i do, but if we disregarded every thing that had the capability to cause harm then we would have zero and I mean ZERO medications. Don’t you understand that? Is that a difficult thing to grasp? Yet for some reason you all cling on to vaccines, which incidently just happens to be the one treatment that can actually not just harm you but harm OTHERS by refusing to have, funny that isn’t it.

What a fabulous post trancepants. Well said.

“Because I know most adults haven't been vaccinated”

Against what Onehandinmypocket?
I am 60 and have been vaccinated against polio, diphtheria, tetanus, TB and rubella, plus vaccinations as required for long haul travel. The MMR didn’t exist when I was a child, but I have had measles (which has affected my eyesight and hearing), and German measles.

And no it’s not all good, because if they pick up something when they are too young for vaccinations - or if god forbid they’re immunocompromised - because of selfish people who aren’t able to understand research, cause and effect and risk factors.... I’ll be angry as hell

Appreciate your sensible comments. Apparently parents are able to just quit their jobs and homeschool without it affecting their financial situation one iota. And the taxes they pay/paid don't entitle then to the benefits of all other tax payers.

Plenty of parents with disabled children are in this situation - read a post just the other day here with multiple parents forced to homeschool and suffering financially as a result because no schools could accommodate their children’s needs. If a child gets leukaemia and needs treatment, sending them to a school with unvaccinated children would be very dangerous for them, so those parents may have to homeschool with severe financial impact.

The difference is, those parents didn’t choose those things - they didn’t choose for their children to be ill or have additional needs.

Yes, I agree it’s unfair that rich parents would have a choice that poor parents wouldn’t, but as it stands it’s unfair that vulnerable people could die as a result of other people’s choices.

@Prequelle I'm not trying to manipulate what she said. She asked for evidence, I gave it.

@OftenHangry there is no routine vaccination against TB in the UK now. Only in specific localities. The cost of the programme was excessive in relation to the risks of catching it. Perhaps some people choose to refuse certain vaccinations because they feel the risks are relatively low. No vaccination is anywhere near 100% effective and flu jabs are notoriously ineffective.

@SinkGirl first doses of the hpv vaccine are being given in schools.

I’ve had measles, mumps and chicken pox.

Do you know why we don’t immunise children against chicken pox routinely? It’s mostly because exposure to kids with chicken pox act as a booster against shingles for adults. We let children contract chicken pox so that adults don’t get shingles (and don’t get chicken pox, actually, which is more problematic for adults, but still).

Herd immunity is a massive factor in public health strategy.

Where is the evidence that people are NOT immune to these illnesses? You’re the one making assertions, please prove them.

We know that herd immunity exists due to infection rates, transmission rates and the way that outbreaks crop up in certain areas (especially those with high rates of non-vaccination, as in America with measles right now) but do not become epidemics or pandemics.

Increases in rates of these illnesses map closely to places where populist governments are gaining power - why do you think that is?
www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/25/vaccine-scepticism-rises-in-line-with-votes-for-populists-study-finds

@Prequelle Can you name even one other medication whereby access to education and welfare would be contingent on its use? I have no issue with your choice to be vaccinated, I have been vaccinated. I only take issue with the idea that the government has the power to impoverish people by refusing to comply with their mandate on vaccines.

It is wrong. It will not end well and I don't think even one vaccine injured child as a result is ok. Not one.