To think perhaps schools should insist on vaccinations.

[Lovestonap]

Good animal boarding kennels etc will not take animals without their vaccinations up to date.
Should our schools be able to insist on a completed course of childhood vaccinations (up to age appropriate) before giving a space at a school? Obviously children who are unable to be vaccinated would have a medical exemption certificate. I think this would be a good idea, but then I'm wondering if this is a nanny state too far thing. Probably implications for human rights I haven't considered.

Yet for some reason you all cling on to vaccines, which incidently just happens to be the one treatment that can actually not just harm you but harm OTHERS by refusing to have, funny that isn’t it.

It’s also the routine treatment that people can avoid by selfishly relying on the herd immunity created by others.

I’m always amused by anti-vaxxers denying the reality and benefit of herd immunity while they freeload on it.

An outbreak of measles and the anti-vaxxers are down the clinic for their children’s jabs ASAP.

@OftenHangry thank you. Vaccines are not all the same. The risk to benefit ratio and efficacy must be considered. If someone were to develop a highly effective vaccine against Ebola then people in a high risk area for that disease would be mad not to get the vaccine as the benefits so greatly outweigh the risks. Not all vaccines have such a high risk/benefit ratio however. And some vaccines are not always effective, such as the flu vaccine, as you say.

@JassyRadlett You sound incredibly elitist.

Based on what? Support for social democracy with rights and responsibilities? Suggesting if people make a choice that has an impact on others, they should plan for the known consequences of that choice, the same as they do for other choices? You sound like the people moaning because they can’t access extra childcare funding because they’re a stay at home parent. Want all the toys, but none of the downsides.

Honestly, your kids are vaccinated yeah? Should be allllll good then. But don't come at me with your faux concerns about other peoples kids when that is your response to my comment about vaccine injury. Lifelong disability with round the clock care because you think the chickenpox will kill you and your whole family isn't a risk people should be forced to take. What a callous thing to say.

What a ludicrous, minimising, callous argument. Your comments about vaccine damage is so totally illogical it’s hard to know where to start, but a good place is the lasting-round the clock care needed by those permanently damaged by preventable diseases is a decent spot, given the much higher risks of those complications than of vaccine damage. Your hyperbolic dismissal of these concerns as ‘being scared you and your whole family will die of chickenpox’ is callous and disgraceful, as well as again showing your cluelessness about the situation with vaccines in the UK.

Combined with your determined ignorance of disease transmission patterns and your pretence that vaccine effectiveness rates are 100%, you have now totally destroyed any credibility you may have had from your earlier posts.

onehand nope, but I also can’t name one that the future of society is so heavily reliant on people utilising. I think its a sheer privilege we have, to be able to get something that people once prayed to god for after losing their nth family member in a month. Such privilege we have and yet such stupidity resulting in virtually irradiated diseases being re-introduced to societies.

That’s why I said mostly.

Anaphylaxis rates for the HPV vaccine are higher than for some of the other school-given vaccines (this study in Australia showed 2.6 cases per 100,000, but 0.1 per 100,000 for meningitis C) but still extremely low. Reactions usually occur in under 1 hour.

Personally I don’t think vaccinations should be done outside of medical settings, but you are right - they usually occur in people with pre-existing severe allergies, and the majority who react would therefore carry an epipen, since most of the reactions to vaccine ingredients are to things most will already have been exposed to (egg, gelatine, antibiotics).

I do appreciate however that the numbers are relatively low, and lower than other anaphylactic reactions in schools to food and environmental allergens.

Approximately 1 in 6 schools in this American study had at least one student have an anaphylactic reaction in school in the 2013-2014 academic year.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5314730/

It is wrong. It will not end well and I don't think even one vaccine injured child as a result is ok. Not one.

You would prefer hundreds of thousands dead instead then, because that is the alternative.

I really hope you shun other drugs. I’ve seen a kid die from paracetamol, where’s your uproar? Far more have died from than then vaccines. But you’re not in disgust about that, and you know why? Because this isn’t about the kids is it, it’s about little people feeling they’re losing control of their choices and they just can’t take it, they can’t hack that the government may just be acting in our best interests, instead they have to resist.

Jassy

One case of vaccine injury is not okay, but over 90 cases of measles in the ten months of 2018 is just dandy? The fact that this is more than a 4x increase over the previous year?

Look at this: measles death rates
www.gov.uk/government/publications/measles-deaths-by-age-group-from-1980-to-2013-ons-data/measles-notifications-and-deaths-in-england-and-wales-1940-to-2013

Over 100 deaths from measles some years, down to 0-4 at the most since 1999. As infection numbers go up, that will increase.

In 2017 there were 38 deaths from measles. In the first six months of 2018, there were 37. Countries where measles had been eradicated now have cases. This is extremely serious.
www.theguardian.com/society/2018/aug/20/low-mmr-uptake-blamed-for-surge-in-measles-cases-across-europe

@SinkGirl you sound like you know what you are talking about. My concern is with other reactions to vaccines - anaphylaxis is obviously well described and easy to identify. There has been discussion of the chronic effects of certain vaccines where autoimmunity, intolerances and other pre-existing medical conditions exist. I do believe that vaccines are safe for most people but that some people need to avoid them. The problem is that by putting vaccine programmes into schools and trying to suppress all discussion of side effects (hello current media campaigns) people are being brainwashed into thinking vaccines are completely safe and not thinking carefully about medical history / allergies / risks before they consent.

@SinkGirl I will just add this, why do you think the rates of vaccinations are dropping? You people are scaring the crap out of people. I'm serious. You can ignore that or mock it as you see fit, but it's true. If you want more people to vaccinate, genuinely, stop with the threat of mandatory vaccines and stop with the vicious put downs. Not everyone is like you, not everyone trusts the government like you do and if you continue to ignore those facts, you will continue to lose peoples faith and rates will continue to fall. I don't think the anti vaxxers have been as much a contributor to a decline in vaccines as pro vaxxers have been, and I am not the only one to say so.

@Monsan44 I do enjoy watching you avoid acknowledging me in this discussion, as though we are in a school yard and I'm being left out because I've said the 'wrong thing'. Laughable. Anyway, hiding this now.

@SinkGirl so the drug companies should continue to offer the single measles vaccination which means those who have concerns about MMR will have choice. They can protect themselves and others. Back to freedom of choice.

vaccines aren’t the solution

They wiped out fucking SMALLPOX.

@Onehandinmypocket I am not trying to avoid acknowledging you but I'm trying to keep away from some of the mudslinging!!

You people are scaring the crap out of people. I'm serious. You can ignore that or mock it as you see fit...

From an anti-vaxxer? Who tries to frighten people about vaccines and vaccination policy? Thanks, I will mock this nonsense.

It’s too stupid for words.

@Prequelle not all vaccines are created equal. That is why terms like anti-vax and pro-vax are unhelpful. Each situation and each vaccine should be considered on its merits. And the issues of efficacy and risk/benefit are complex. The flu vaccine is unlikely to wipe out the flu, for example. And vaccines which have been around for longer are better understood than new vaccines.

@KissingInTheRain I have all the documentation to show that I've had every vaccination (other than flu) and so have my kids. The fact you can't handle that I vaccinate and strongly disagree with mandating it just isn't computing in your tiny, narrow minded little brain.

Keep doing the anti vax community a favour though and keep that scare mongering up! Go you!

It should be compulsory. When you apply for a school place it could be one of the documents you upload to the application and the council checks just like they do proof of residency etc.

If parents choose to homeschool then that's their choice. The state should be responsible for keeping the majority of children away from what can be deadly diseases.

The problem with "we are not in high risk of tb" hence less vaccinations is that there is anti biotic resistant tb literally a very short plane ride away. And with turism, migration etc we simply shouldn't be taking chances.

It's very difficult nowadays because the travel allows for deseases to spread from continent to continent ever so easily.

And yeah. I realised that tb vaccination is not that common here based on the amount of people asking me what that scar on my arm is from.

Onehand

But you’re not just opposing the idea of a schools vaccination policy, are you?

You’ve doubted the concept of herd immunity; and you’ve suggested that measles casualties are the result of poor nutrition and sanitation. These are standard anti-vaxx - bullshit - arguments.

You are making anti-vaxxer arguments, whatever your and your children’s vaccination status might be. Assuming what you say about that is true, of course.

I really, really believe we are heading towards mass deaths like it used to be before vaccines.
The timing of two massive factors is just perfect.
Antibiotic resistance on a rise while vaccination rates are falling.
Sad.

Also. Will give some of you little heart attack, but we were actually vaccinated against tb in a classroom. Doctors used to coke to schools so they get everyone and parents don't have to take time off from work. Also used to have a dentist coming once a year😁

I’m 27 and had mine done in a classroom too!

I don't think the threat of mandatory/vaccines being required for state education has much to do with vaccination number dropping. I also don't think it has to entirely with being uneducated as suggested earlier in this thread as most research I've seen shows anti-vaxxers are more likely to have high incomes and some university-level education than to be the stereotyped poor person with no schooling. There is something to be said to having enough education to see dangers and threats and not enough to sort out how much of a danger or threat something is.

I've said before on similar threads, many years ago as a new parent very recently immigrated, the only group I had was a 'natural' parenting group which had a lot of people who were anti-vax or delayed/spread out/selective vaxxers. The one thing the vast majority had in common more than anything was either a personal or being close to someone who had experienced medical abuse or neglect. Obstetric abuse and neglect particularly, which is why I wasn't surprised to see a study recently which showed one of the most common types of women to become vocally anti-vax is soon after giving birth. It's a fear and lack of trust that the medical profession will support if things go wrong because for many of us, horrible things have already happened and that was shown to be true. I think it could be argued that some of those most likely to generally feel in control (high incomes, well educated) might have the strongest reaction against it which could explain why the most vocal groups are as they seem to be.

Having better, more accountable systems in place for medical abuse and neglect - alongside maybe some well done resources on how human bodies and herd immunity works (no medication including vaccines is 100%, but the less people that can be infected, the less it can spread or mutate into a more dangerous form. It's not really that complicated). Maybe connecting it to state education might help some but those who are most likely to react against such things I think are more likely to just opt-out further.

I think the UK has the benefit that young people can arrange their own and those with concerns can arrange to have them done at hospitals even if usually done elsewhere (I know because I've done it). Places like the US this is much more difficult which is why there was a recent viral (pun not intended) articles and videos of teens that were unvaccinated by their parents going behind their parents back to do so and helping others to do the same. Some community colleges and similar do help in the US as well - it's how I got mine up to date so I could apply to university - but making sure it is accessible, understanding staff about fears and concerns rather than treating any worries as nonsense, and working on the lack of trust many have with medical professionals after horrible experiences I think might do more than just connecting it to state education or benefits. I'm not entirely against the idea, I just don't think it would deal with the issue from my experience.