That we can afford the chicken!?

[hungryfordinner]

So I've had an argument with my husband and really need some independent perspective.

We are a family of three - me, husband and toddler

• we own our house outright (paid off last summer)!
• we both earn good salaries- after childcare we have about £5k per month to go towards living and saving. We each get £500 to cover tube transport / mobile / personal expenses, so £4000 is free. We are saving for an overseas home and our child's future. There is plenty in savings if we need it.

And yet- today I realised we had no meat in the fridge aside from some sausages, no vegetables apart from tomatoes; and we only get groceries on a Sunday. Not fancying sausages, I bought some chicken breasts in Sainsbury's for £6, and came home and made dinner for the three of us, using the tomatoes and pasta we already had.

I thought that my husband would be pleased I had dinner ready (Wednesday is my day off; he has Fridays off and never has dinner ready for me when I get home).

Well, he has come home and kicked off big time about me buying the chicken. Apparently we need to make what's in the fridge last a whole week, even if it means pesto pasta or tinned meals. And we shouldn't be eating so much meat.

We spend max £40 on food / nappies (his rule) per week and honestly it's driving me crazy. Yes- some people do this and manage fine. I get this. It's not impossible but it's not fun.

But AIBU to think that since we are in such a fortunate financial position, we can splash out on a bit of mid-week chicken? Why the need to control our existence in such a shitty way?

Wait - while I'm at it- a cleaner. I always said to him I want a cleaner when I am back at work. Our time together is too valuable to waste time cleaning. But nope. Instead I spent at least an hour of my day off cleaning skid marks that his disgusting mate had left in our family bathroom last night, scrubbing the rest of that bathroom down, vacuuming and mopping the ground floor, and doing laundry.

All while trying to entertain a toddler or get him to nap (bloody hard work).

On Saturdays we both do a full clean of the house, either while the child sleeps or if he won't sleep,!we take turns cleaning / entertaining child.

I'm sick of living such a miserly existence when we can well and truly afford to live a little!

Dear OP

Ellyess has given you some of the best advice I’ve seen. Your discussion today didn’t happen at all, never mind having a result. He sidestepped your attempt to have some control by rowing over a minor misdemeanour and in doing so, retained control. Any time you show resistance or having a will of your own, in his eyes, you will need to be fined over a misdemeanour and new ones will be invented all the time. Your child will have a miserable childhood; not allowed to join in ordinary activities as the need to save money will be greater. This saving and penny-pinching will always be there whether you get a second house or not. When your DS becomes a teenager he will want to eat huge amounts of food, probably lots of meat as well which costs a lot. Teenagers’ appetites are amazing- at the end of a plateful of food, followed by pudding, they will announce that they are still hungry! Please don’t let this happen to your child.
Please go to the Bank/Buliding Society in your lunch break on Monday and ask them to set up a new account for you with half the money in it and have all the paperwork sent to your workplace. It may take 90 days and you know you will be having a major row when he finds out. Ask your workplace to pay your salary into you own account (set one up if you don’t already have one. This can take time so do it ASAP) . Take a bag with clothes etc for both you and your DS, your personal documents/ passports and copies of all bank statements and anything of personal value to you and either leave it at work or at a friend’s house. Confide in a friend. You’ll be surprised how many will be willing to help you. Don’t be embarrassed or ashamed- no one will blame you. Good luck

DoveOfPiss - does your daughter need to stay with her dad now she is 16? From what you’ve said she is working and paying her own way? I hope she finds her freedom.

DoveOfPiss I'm so sorry! He really is eeevil! What a wicked man! Reporting you to all those people! Such a wanker. They must have realised he was a wicked vindictive horrific man. I think the Police sometimes see through them. My husband's older brother was as bad as my husband. When my husband committed suicide, his brother, who would see him once a year if that, came to my home and started telling me that I was wrong about everything. Not that I had said much, but he said that my husband would not have killed himself - he left suicide notes FGS - and all sorts of other crap about how he knew his brother better than I did. Yes! He saw him once a year since I'd been married to him 20 years before. I had to live with him every day... He said that my husband had written to them (the brother and his wife) saying that he and I were parting and the children were staying with him and we would all be together in three weeks. I asked the date on the letter and it was three weeks from the day he killed himself. I had been given custody of the children. I think that caused him to commit suicide. But he left me another note and then told me something too long for here. I told the Police about that. The Police protected me from the brother, they had summed up what an evil and dangerous gobshite he was and they tried to stop him coming to the inquest, but they sat beside him when he turned up! Somewhen I said about my husband telling the bro that the children would be with him etc. They put that and the other stuff I had said about what their father had been saying to me all together. Later the Cop I had been seeing about my husband's death came to my house and said, "Sit down. I need to say something rather awful. We have enough evidence here to have no doubt that your husband was planning to take the children and kill them when he killed himself but something went wrong and he didn't manage to get them." Can you believe it? It would have been just to get at me.

It still shocks me to hear about how these men treat their children as well. I have heard so many awful things but each time I think "how can they? This is their own child?" But of course they are Narcissists with psychopathy. No empathy. How dreadful for you to have to battle with him for all those years! Do you get any kind of help or Counselling? Tbh I think some of the self help groups online can be as good so long as you are sensible and not too shaken up. People who have been through it really understand and support each other.
Look after yourself. I'm glad your daughter has you. Lots of love Elle x

Just a thought, with a 90 day notice account, you can give 90 days notice to withdraw money or they should allow you to take the money out instantly, you just loose the last 90 days of interest (worth checking). He may not like that at all, but it may be necessary for you to do this. Please be prepared in case things get worse. Good luck

OP, to second what was said above @Ellyess has given superb advice.

At the moment it may feel like an issue contained within your marriage but I'm concerned that it will shortly start to affect your child - either picking up on the tension or becoming a target.

I have a friend who was in a very similar situation (£15 food budget a week for two children), the father has now extended his controlling and withholding behaviour to the children - being forced to sit on the side of the pool after swimming lessons as he is still in the gym, never allowed to do anything extra at school (no trips, never dress up for dress up days) etc, children never taken to the doctors...

I hope this isn't in your future but please have a hard look at the situation and think whether your DC might start to suffer...

@Ellyess I think you are being very hard on op. She has stated numerous times that they thread is opening her eyes to the whole picture of her life with her husband. This is clearly a realisation process. I wonder how quickly you would realise, accept and modify your life on the basis of a thread on a public forum. There is lots I agree with you about however I don't think your method is the most supportive. If it takes hundreds of posts to open the op's eyes to the coercive and controlling abuse then this thread is a success.

Surely in your experience as a counsellor you would have seen people undergo various emotions before they can accept what has happened in their life? I imagine playing it down is quite common. I read the bit about being useful for other woman as being as well as rather than instead of.

This thread didn't start too dramatically but it has developed to become disturbing and emotionally wrought. Much like the op's relationship and her husband's controlling behaviour I would think.

Op you are a strong woman who has a career and the ability to succeed. You don't need your husband and neither will your child (he is not making your child's need paramount in his life - I can't imagine this changing). You deserve a life that you have control in and the ability to make decisions (both big and small). I hope you have a support network as this must be a pretty awful experience for you all.

@Ellyess your post made me cry 😢 I can't imagine how you coped in that situation but clearly you are a very strong person. I'm so glad that whatever went wrong happened and your children are with you today

I don't think my husband is actually being a fully abusive person

Abuse is abuse though, no abuse is acceptable or ok.

All this saving the planet is bullshit, it's an excuse for being mean and controlling. Surely he wouldn't be buying disposable nappies (for starters) if he cared about the planet!

I think the only person you should be talking to is a family law solicitor.

@hungryfordinner My Dad would swear to anyone that my mother is not abusive or controlling. She abused me for decades and he either didn’t notice or didn’t want to see it. Either way, he enabled her abuse and since my siblings and I were forced to go no contact with her, she has steadily isolated him from family and friends and she controls everything my Dad does.

It took me a long time to understand that psychological abuse is still abuse. The atmosphere in our home growing up was horrendous because my mother controlled everyone in the house and punishments were a daily occurrence. Because one of my mother’s obsessions was money, we were not allowed to eat anything without asking, even as teenagers. Food - even fruit - was rationed and my siblings would hoard food. If I had a bag of crisps I would have to hide them under my bed.

Normal husbands and wives do not fine each other, withold money, restrict spending and punish each other. That’s bullying and it’s controlling. As your dc grows up, your husband’s controlling and abusive behaviour will not stop with you; he will do it to your dc too.

My upbringing has left me with PTSD and other problems. I wish my Dad had had the strength and the parental instincts to stand up for my siblings and I. I wish he’d divorced my mother and taken us with him. I wish he’d realise even now that he’s been brainwashed and under my mother’s control, but it’s too late for him.

Please don’t let it be too late for you and your little one.

Please stay strong, OP.

I know this is all so easy for us to say sitting here, but we are all behind you op.

Thinking of you, OP. x

Just read the whole thread. He is very controlling. Scarily so. You should not be fined for what you are doing, daily living. So wrong.

omg, your husband sounds just like my Ex!

So glad to be out of that.

I now have a very generous prince of a DH.

How many of you are completely missing the point of this. Don’t you understand men haha

My first thought it something underlying is going on here. It’s got nothing to do with money or the carbon footprint of meat (his excuse after being pulled up on his outburst.

He is starting to pick at things you do and sometimes when they are unhappy it will be the smallest of issues.
It wouldnt surprise me if he will start to comment on your parenting shortly if not already.
The cleaning thing I would say is that he loves the fact that you clean the house, don’t forget that a house has to be a home and you cleaning it and looking after it is what makes it a home.

Oh dear Mumto....

Yes, something underlying IS going on here - this man is abusive, that's what's going on.

Thinking of you OP, it's not ok to be made to live like that. Hope you can find the strength to stand up to him and insist it stops or you leave with your son. I did wonder if it's part of your upbringing wherever you are from to be subservient to your husband? Maybe seperation/divorce would be frowned upon? It seems strange to me as someone who grew up in the UK that you would ever consider accept this behaviour acceptable in the first place.

OP - let's be frank.

1. You have an abusive husband and even though he hasn't raised his hands to you (yet), your child is being abused.

1. You have a shit-ton of a financial cushion. Given you planned to buy a house/retire to your home country - unless that country is Monaco you already have the financial means to do that right now if you split.

You'll be in your home country, mortgage-free with presumably family support and a shiny new life.

Surely it's a no-brainer?

Hungry my take on the new argument and now no talking is. He feels something is up, he has manufactured this new argument and no talking to stop you discussing aything with him, buying him time to put you back in your box.

Troels is 100% CORRECT.

Probably be a bit 'nicer' for a couple of days next, placating OP, then he'll return to standard operations.

If you love this man I'd like to offer another take on how to handle this situation OP.
When you talk to him about how his actions are making you feel, don't just focus on his actions. Try to be curious about his intentions and encourage him to be too. What does money symbolise to him? Love? Security? Acceptance? Only by understanding his behaviours and it's consequences on you both, does he have any chance of changing them.
You could also be curious about your own behaviour. Why have you passively accepted this all? What are you afraid of? Where did this passivity come from? And maybe by understanding that you can also change to be more assertive and more importantly feel you have the right to be.
If you want to stay in this relationship then approaching this from a joint perspective with genuine curiosity will help. Maybe even consider relationship counselling?
Good luck

Oh my God Twisted [sighs in total exasperation].

'Curiosity'? !!!?

You don't enter into relationship counselling with controlling, abusive, narcissistic, personality disordered people because they manipulative unaware counsellors who attempt (futilely, like the OP and like in your suggestion which is very sweet if it were relating to a normal person, but it's not) to apply rational, normal counselling techniques to this person which can then actually expose the OP in that situation to more abuse over a longer time as they think they're in the process of 'fixing' the issue - but they aren't because that person won't change. That person won't change because they can't change. So counselling is just a bit long drawn out waste of time. Sadly.

There are loads of questions really. Why is she paying for a gym instead of food, she is losing weight from the food restrictions. Its awful.
I just hope she has a friend or someone nice in her life that can help her out. Good luck to you, i hope you will be ok.

watsmyname Sat 02-Mar-19 21:04:29
You are right. I was deliberately being tough. I am very frightened about this mum's situation and I thought she was backing down and being misled into believing her husband can't be all that bad after all. This is natural. Usually when counselling the safety of the victim/survivor is the first concern. In almost all cases the person starts to think that their abuser can't be that bad and listens to the excuses the abuser gives. They may even go through a patch where the abuser lays off the abuse a bit. If the person then starts to initiate a situation which could put them in danger or in any way at risk, we have to try and make them see the truth of their reality as quickly as we can. In most cases we haven't time to be gentle. In this case I can see this OP losing everything by warning the abuser that she is going to take measures against his regime. He could easily start taking the shared money. I am sure he is using her as a means to make money and as an object in his game go tormenting her. He gets his kicks from this.
That he is totally in control in this house is revealed by the OP's Saturday evening message:
"The discussion is not happening tonight because we already had an argument about some minor transgression, so we are not talking."
This is a discussion which was the OP's desire to have. So he thwarted it as he found another "transgression". His ability to infiltrate into her every move and control it by demeaning her, criticising her, is total. it means that even when he is not there she will be worrying about doing something wrong.

I would prefer the OP to start taking action quietly to ensure the safety of her money and be prepared to leave with her son at short notice.

Hungryfordinner I really would urge you not to try and have a discussion with this man on your own. I'm probably too late in which case I hope and pray it goes well and has no terrible repercussions.
He is not reasonable, he is far too critical and obsessed with his rules and punishments. It really does not matter why he is like this. You are not his Therapist and can never be. You need protection. Whatever you think or however it feels right now, there are enough signs here to show abuse. I am seriously worried about you. Please get help. Look up Coercive Control, and even if you still think he is not that bad, reflect for a while on how much of your time at home (maybe outside home too) he commands making you do what he says. Keep a diary. But get help and put your savings in your own account. If he's good guy you can still use them to buy what you are saving for.
Meanwhile I beg you to follow the advice in these messages about that and about having a packedI beg her to follow the advice in these messages about that and about having a I beg her to follow the advice in these messages about that and about having a bag packed.

Booboo66 makes a very important point about the not talking. Frequent protracted spells of silence from one person is abuse. Refusing to talk to someone is another very hostile form of control. It says, "You are beneath me, I won't even bother to talk to you." Of course in a normal relationship we will argue sometimes and then might not talk to each other for a while. But when used regularly by one person to not answer the other it is a serious red flag of abuse.

The discussion is not happening tonight because we already had an argument about some minor transgression, so we are not talking.