That we can afford the chicken!?

[hungryfordinner]

So I've had an argument with my husband and really need some independent perspective.

We are a family of three - me, husband and toddler

• we own our house outright (paid off last summer)!
• we both earn good salaries- after childcare we have about £5k per month to go towards living and saving. We each get £500 to cover tube transport / mobile / personal expenses, so £4000 is free. We are saving for an overseas home and our child's future. There is plenty in savings if we need it.

And yet- today I realised we had no meat in the fridge aside from some sausages, no vegetables apart from tomatoes; and we only get groceries on a Sunday. Not fancying sausages, I bought some chicken breasts in Sainsbury's for £6, and came home and made dinner for the three of us, using the tomatoes and pasta we already had.

I thought that my husband would be pleased I had dinner ready (Wednesday is my day off; he has Fridays off and never has dinner ready for me when I get home).

Well, he has come home and kicked off big time about me buying the chicken. Apparently we need to make what's in the fridge last a whole week, even if it means pesto pasta or tinned meals. And we shouldn't be eating so much meat.

We spend max £40 on food / nappies (his rule) per week and honestly it's driving me crazy. Yes- some people do this and manage fine. I get this. It's not impossible but it's not fun.

But AIBU to think that since we are in such a fortunate financial position, we can splash out on a bit of mid-week chicken? Why the need to control our existence in such a shitty way?

Wait - while I'm at it- a cleaner. I always said to him I want a cleaner when I am back at work. Our time together is too valuable to waste time cleaning. But nope. Instead I spent at least an hour of my day off cleaning skid marks that his disgusting mate had left in our family bathroom last night, scrubbing the rest of that bathroom down, vacuuming and mopping the ground floor, and doing laundry.

All while trying to entertain a toddler or get him to nap (bloody hard work).

On Saturdays we both do a full clean of the house, either while the child sleeps or if he won't sleep,!we take turns cleaning / entertaining child.

I'm sick of living such a miserly existence when we can well and truly afford to live a little!

Have the conversation in the morning so you can leave if you need to (to get space or whatever)
You are being very naive and innocent.
be careful.

I can't stop thinking about this thread. It's just so worrying

Be careful, OP. I don't think he is a good man.

It does sound like coercive control, look like it and feel like it. That might not be the intention, it could 'just' be obsessive hoarding (of money) though. However, it has got to a stage that is far from healthy and needs to be addressed and changed.

Please be careful op. I agree about speaking in the morning rather than the evening, that makes it much easier to get away with DC if you need to.

This fining thing is ridiculous.
Is there anything he does that you could 'fine' him back for?
Not cleaning up skid marks after his guest?
Not suggesting you necessarily actually fine him but a "maybe I should fine you for that" now and again to make a point?
I'd have been tempted to give him vegatable stir fry and you and ds chicken and veg - after all, it's cost you £20.

This environmental concern is BS. If he was really that concerned, you wouldn't be saving up for a holiday home abroad, let alone planning on having another kid. It's an excuse.

Sorry, I don't have any advice. When I first began reading this thread, I found it all slightly amusing, I'm ashamed to say. Following it all, my eyes have been opened and I'm appalled. I really hope it all works out for you. There was an article in the Guardian lifestyle section advice column about a woman being (physically) abused, and there was useful advice. I really hope it works out OP.

Good luck. Stick to the points. (3 points maximum) Dont let him change the subject and start talking about other things.
E.g.

I want to discuss and review our budget.
I want to be able to buy food for myself and my child.
I want you to stop being so tight with money.

Work out your 3 points now. Whatever they are, stick to them and dont be bullied or convinced that you are wrong.
He will probably say that he is doing it for your future or try to get off the points. dont allow this, you are calling the meeting. His behaviour is inexcusable.

If he says he is only acting like this for your good or your future, then tell him you wont have a future because nobody would put up with this tightness long term, and for his goals only.

If your relationship ends, your house is probably worth 1 million. You could sell up and have a 500k house and your freedom. You are holding ALL THE CARDS. Good luck.

Quite frankly if he was that concerned about the environment he would spend a lot more on locally produced, organic food and wouldn't eat chicken at all. In fact he'd insist any meat he consumed was bought from a very expensive butcher specialising in highest welfare, lowest impact farming. The meat we buy costs £6 per portion.

It angers me that he's using this bollocks as a reason.

OP you sound like you are not really that bothered by what your husband is doing. Saying this thread should be pinned for "other women".
Mortgage free, £50k savings yet still living under a tightly controlled regime. How can you not see this is a miserable life you are condemning yourself and your child to?

Your thread is shocking OP. 50k in savings and he fines you for using water and electricity?
Yes this is abuse and control. How will he be when your child gets older and wants useless stuff, as kids do and expensive teenage taste?
Seriously run for the hills. He sounds like he has serious issues he needs to address. This man will suck the joy and fun out of every experience in life. You are very very well off and he is acting like you dont have enough money to top up the electricity meter.
Enjoy your own life. This is not normal and not a healthy relationship

single minded that he is "right" in trying to save the world one chicken breast at a time

Er..... but nothing you've said indicates that he gives a flying fuck about the environment or about 'saving the world'. He would be spending more on shopping, not less, if that were the case.

No, it's just a convenient disguise for his controlling behaviour.

Just for a few who haven’t rtft, the second home is in the ops country and would be where they live. They would understandably like to hang onto a U.K. place for future living opportunities and the children at college etc. It’s very fortunate but not quite the same as a holiday home.

Sorry, but that is exactly the same thing. They will own two homes, both of which they plan to use. There is no plan to move fully for some time. Therefore they will travel between the homes to a certain extent for at least a few years if not more. The OP implies this is a long way away, therefore likely they will be flying between the homes.

The environmental aspect is no different to if it were a traditional holiday home. The fact that the OP has links to the country the second home is in makes no difference.

Whatever way you try and spin it, this man's actions do not scream 'environmental crusader' in any way.

Op many woman try to justify their partner’s controlling and abusive behaviour and are in denial, trying to play it down. It’s like anything, the first step is to admit to yourself that you are being abused. It’s a hard thing to do but once you accept the situation for what it is then you can think more clearly about how you should move forward. Abuse comes in many different forms. Don’t be fooled that what is happening to you isn’t a form of abuse because it is. Just coz you don’t have bruises doesn’t make it less real. Good luck.

It's not even £40 for shopping because nappies are around £10 and you are probably using a pack a week, so you only really have £30 per week for food.

hungryfordinner

I'll have one more try. As I have said, and I am a bit embarrassed to bang on about it, I was a University Research Psychologist, a Counsellor and worked for a Charity where almost all our cases were abused by controlling men like your husband. Their abuse was to keep their wife under conditions where they placed rules in the home, either overtly or implicitly. One of the biggest areas of control was finances, taking all their wages, shaming them if they spent money. Then there would be refusing to help in the home, especially if they enjoyed time with friends or colleagues, constantly belittling her, making them feel inferior so they obeyed him in ridiculous situations such as not having the lights on or the heating on, - all these things are not new to me. Neither is it new to me that the man suddenly gets found out as having taken all the joint savings. DoveofPiss has bravely and generously warned you about this from her own experience..
I and many other people on this thread can see, from proper knowledge and experience, that your H is an abuser.
We can see that he has manipulated you into not realising that what he is doing is abuse.

Saying to us that our recommendations could be pinned to be useful for "other women" is one of the biggest pieces of denial I have heard. Of course it is abuse. Nobody should have to live as you do. Not even if his excuse is saving the planet one chicken breast at a time. That is the most ridiculous reason for all the things he does that I have heard! You cannot minimise his despicable behaviour like that!

You have insulted the huge number of experienced and very caring people on this thread who have tried so hard to help you, by suggesting that our comments are only of use for "other women."
We said them to you based only on what you told us. Unless you have been lying about the fines, lights turned off, water in the kettle, cat food, etc., then we know this constitutes Coercive Controlling Abuse. Perhaps your pride cannot accept that your husband is such a man or that you have become a victim of this abuse? This is a normal reaction. But it can happen to anyone, particularly if you are a kind person and try to please people.

You won't get anywhere tonight. You won't have a "conversation" of equals where he values and listens to your input. He won't agree to change how he treats you. He won't agree to stop the abusive fine system. You won't stay calmly sticking to the point and not being led off the track into details about the carbon footprint or some other completely irrelevant subject that he will go on about in order to distract you from seeing that he is treating you abusively. He won't see that all this potty behaviour is nothing to do with saving the planet when you are supposed to be buying a house to travel to abroad. He will manipulate you, talk over you, tease you, say you are wrong. He might even agree with you, but then he will go away and carry on the same as before.

In doing to you the things he does, he shows he does not love you or value you. You are just a tool in his plan to save up a lot of money. I would be surprised if the house abroad materialises. I would not be surprised if all the money you are earning and the fines you are paying gets suddenly whisked away by him and you never see any of it. You are a money-making device for him and while you do it he gets his thrills out of pushing you around, taunting you, making you look small, making you do whatever he tells you no matter how demeaning, and seeing you try and manage a miserable life living on a shoe-string.

I've spoken bluntly; you need to face the truth. I can do no more. It's up to you. You have been given plenty of warnings. People here have given you an immense amount of time and loving care. You can throw it in their faces or you can take heed of it. It is your choice.

One day you will either be very glad you took notice of what people are saying here or you will wish so much that you had listened to us instead of thinking all this is only of use for "other women".

Think carefully. Good luck.

Wow Ellyess. That's beautifully written and incredible advice.

nanbread Me too.

And this doesn't bode well for the future OP, think about how things could play out going forward if not for you, but for your child:

• My DD is 17 now. She has money for lunches at school - that's about £80 a month for that alone (which is only £3.60 a day for sandwich snack and drink so that's the bare minimum) - is he going to want to control this down so your child takes just a jam sandwich and bottle of water from home every day?! Yes, course he is! Not only would they get the wotsit ripped out of them by their mates but it won't give the child the nutrients and energy they need
• Buses - I'm always giving her £3.80 here and there for day save bus tickets some of which she has to get a bus for in order to partake in a school activity and other times socialising-related - is he going to control all of that and force your child to walk everywhere? (You can laugh, but you may well find that the controlling behaviour extends fully out onto your child as they grow and, most likely and most particularly, as they start to exhibit their own desires and wishes which if they don't concur with his thinking, will be another thing he needs to control...)
• as they get old they attend birthday parties (average present spend ranges £5 to £15 depending on age, as they get older they go to Nando's or Pizza Hut and have a meal and trip to the cinema as a group - you need up to £30 for that) - will he say they can only go to their little friend's party if they don't take a present or stop them going out with their teenage mates because it's 'too expensive'?
• Numerous other examples too many to mention - at the moment I'm saving up for an A level related overseas trip that is an exchange programme they do every year - I'm currently saving to have £2k set aside for this trip (hence why I'm not going on a summer holiday this year!!!) - will your child just not be allowed to go on any school trips (think of the air miles and the cost issues DH would have!).

I can see this being a very socially isolating, bleak and miserable life for a child in the future because it's not just the now you need to think about. DH will find things - many, many new things - he 'needs' to control going forward and that's bound to affect your child directly in numerous ways, as well as the indirect damage of seeing you fined for any of your 'violations' or spoken to like you're a child on a regular basis....

As they get into the teenage years their needs are many and expensive (mobile phones, trainers etc) - you can resist some of it but you have to strike a balance with ensuring they fit in with their peer group - you have to nip this in the bud now. Now.

Clutter is right. It's difficult because you're at the stage where you're still thinking that applying logic and reasoning and being reasonable with your DH and having a sensible conversation is going to effect a change. Obviously I hope he has a mind blowing epiphany - but in honesty? It's a chance of between slim and none that this will happen and I'm not sure you've realised it yet (which is entirely normal at this point) and the most likely thing is that he will try and bamboozle you with various bits of 'logic' (like environmental impacts) but I guarantee they will all be bullshit.

And I agree with others, take evidence of the balances immediately, now, before you talk to him.

I would agree a splash pot of money above the budget that can be spent on extras.

I think what I'm trying to say (in an excessively gigantic number of words) is, you're unknowlingly sleepwalking into an utterly miserable future for you and your child and we want to help you to stop that happening.

I honestly wish you the absolute best outcome from your discussion with your DH but I think it's far more likely it will be disappointing based on what you want it to go like. At worst (which will in fact turn out to be 'best') you'll get talked down to/placated/false promises/gaslighted etc, and then you'll see that you're not dealing with someone normal and you can move on to dealing with the matter based on the actual reality of the situation.

Regardless of whether the OP is taking the advice on board or not (and that is her prerogative) I took her comment to mean it would be useful for other women as well as her, not instead. I don't think she insulted anyone.

It's a lot for someone in OP's position to suddenly take in. Just because she's not shouting from the rooftops that she's living with an abuser doesn't mean she's not listening, or that she's not taking it in.

Even if it just means (for now) that when next faced with his unreasonable behaviour, the OP questions it as a result of this post, that's a step in the right direction as far as I'm concerned

DointItForTheKids. I think you have more insight -together with some others - into the OP's situation and the kind of man she is with than the OP has or may ever have. To her the "discussion" has now become a "conversation", I notice. Once I read her comment
Thank you for all the advice, so much of it is useful and should be pinned somewhere for other women. I just thought all is lost. She hasn't heard a word we've been saying!
How can she, on the one hand, tell us these things about her husband - so many abusive things, - and then just decide he isn't abusive - just saving the planet! But squirrelling her money away into £50k of savings, a house with no mortgage, a working wife whom he does not help hardly at all in the house and denies a Cleaner and a baby. He takes his wife's salary and lets her have a small amount back to live off - (incidentally a woman should be given more each month to cover sanitary products and hair cuts - men don't need one and the other costs them less!)... and then living so frugally off this £40 a week including nappies (really? how?). It's all crazy. Definitely crazy-making. We have been so distraught with worry about her, writing again and again, trying to reach her and rescue her... But I seriously wonder now. This "denial" aspect seems a bit too much. I wonder what is going on here? Do we have someone in so much distress or is this a con? We've responded logically and with real experience to every example she has given of the abuse. Then, suddenly, to her all we've been saying is only good for "other women". It's too sudden for me. The denial, that is. It's normal for a person not to be able to take in exactly what their husband is like. I've done Counselling so I am very familiar with that. I am reluctant to say but something feels wrong here though, it doesn't seem quite natural. Not like any I've met anyway, and I'm very experienced, plus was married to one myself...

Ahh well, we shall see. Maybe.
Assuming all is as OP has reported to us; I don't think tonight's "conversation" will get very far, whatever she tells us.
This relationship is doomed. She either lives his way or gets out. My biggest fear is that he has a plan to save up a lot of money then put it all in his account and bugger off with it. The house in her home country is his con to make her work like this and live under these impossible conditions. He's having a laugh making her life a misery while she goes through this hell. One day he will bag up the money and up and leave.

@MrsGarethSouthgate has it spot on IMO.

@Ellyess I think you are being a bit histrionic. Why not let the OP find out at her own pace? It is far more likely to stick that way, I think.

Op this £50k in the joint account that takes 90 days to make a transaction - does it need two signatories to move money? If not, does the other signatory get told if the one makes a transaction? I'm wondering if he transfers any money out, if you get told, and vice versa?

And Ellyes, I agree with everything you posted. OP will not leave. She will get precisely nowhere tonight. Tomorrow she will wake up to the same fucking fines, the same stingy pasta and freezer-veg, the same skid-marks for her to clean.

Possibly with a side-order of some new punishment he will dream up for her crime of challenging him.