That we can afford the chicken!?

[hungryfordinner]

So I've had an argument with my husband and really need some independent perspective.

We are a family of three - me, husband and toddler

• we own our house outright (paid off last summer)!
• we both earn good salaries- after childcare we have about £5k per month to go towards living and saving. We each get £500 to cover tube transport / mobile / personal expenses, so £4000 is free. We are saving for an overseas home and our child's future. There is plenty in savings if we need it.

And yet- today I realised we had no meat in the fridge aside from some sausages, no vegetables apart from tomatoes; and we only get groceries on a Sunday. Not fancying sausages, I bought some chicken breasts in Sainsbury's for £6, and came home and made dinner for the three of us, using the tomatoes and pasta we already had.

I thought that my husband would be pleased I had dinner ready (Wednesday is my day off; he has Fridays off and never has dinner ready for me when I get home).

Well, he has come home and kicked off big time about me buying the chicken. Apparently we need to make what's in the fridge last a whole week, even if it means pesto pasta or tinned meals. And we shouldn't be eating so much meat.

We spend max £40 on food / nappies (his rule) per week and honestly it's driving me crazy. Yes- some people do this and manage fine. I get this. It's not impossible but it's not fun.

But AIBU to think that since we are in such a fortunate financial position, we can splash out on a bit of mid-week chicken? Why the need to control our existence in such a shitty way?

Wait - while I'm at it- a cleaner. I always said to him I want a cleaner when I am back at work. Our time together is too valuable to waste time cleaning. But nope. Instead I spent at least an hour of my day off cleaning skid marks that his disgusting mate had left in our family bathroom last night, scrubbing the rest of that bathroom down, vacuuming and mopping the ground floor, and doing laundry.

All while trying to entertain a toddler or get him to nap (bloody hard work).

On Saturdays we both do a full clean of the house, either while the child sleeps or if he won't sleep,!we take turns cleaning / entertaining child.

I'm sick of living such a miserly existence when we can well and truly afford to live a little!

Good luck this weekend OP and keep safe. I am thinking of you and rooting for you xx

Good luck OP. Let's hope he listens to reason, although I suspect he won't

I would add to your addenda a consequence.

I'd also highlight that his behaviour is abusive.

"If you do not stop this abusive behaviour immediately I will remove myself and our son from the situation and begin divorce proceedings.

I totally agree with PPs - don't start by listing examples, or by apologising in ANY way!

Your relationship is Equal - therefore you have an Equal say in what happens.

You WILL be getting a cleaner, paid for jointly, as he refuses to do any cleaning. Do not be swayed by promises to change; he won't The Cleaner is happening.
You are an Equal, and you will not be fined for breaking the 'rules'. (Paying a fine of £1 for a half-pint of water heated unnecessarily? When you save FOUR THOUSAND POUNDS a month? What fuckery!)
You are an Equal, and you bring in at least as much as him, and you will have a say in what food you buy. He can exist on tinned ravioli if he wants, but you and your child need good, nourishing food. And that means that the fridge will always be well stocked. End of discussion.

Above all else, you are an EQUAL! Not his inferior, to be told what to do, or buy, or NOT buy. You earn your own money and will spend it as you like.

And yes, Definitely check where the 'savings' are going!

(And if he kicks off, start considering your exit. And let him know that !)

I like the use of will in the proposals by a pp. As in, this WILL be happening. I’m interested to know why he’s so keen to save money? For his ecologically unsound 2nd home? For your retirement?

I agree OP, having a rational chat about what he's done/said that's wrong, what you want him to do/stop doing, just will not work. You need to simply make a series of statements:

"Your unrealistic restrictions on spending on essentials like food and pet supplies is not normal and therefore I will be changing the following:

1. I will purchase food and pet supplies to a budget that I deem appropriate, to meet the needs of this family, including the changing nutritional needs of a growing child
2. There will be no more 'fines'
3. We will be getting a cleaner
4. Saturdays will be a family day centred around relaxing and outings that are beneficial firstly and foremost for our child but also to us
5. I will purchase any meals/drinks whilst at work that I see fit
6. If I wish to go out I will give you advance notice and I will expect you to provide a healthy, nutritional meal and all the normal care appropriate for our child until I return home
7. I will immediately be removing 50% of the monies in the joint savings account to a personal bank account in light of the current unrealistic spending limitations and restrictions".

You'll not get anywhere with him OP. He's completely irrational and you can't reason with his warped logic. He might pay lip service to it but anyone who thinks this is a normal way to live it just going to magically change his ways. He's a controlling abuser.
Who made him in charge?
You are complying for an easy 'existence' not even an easy life, because it's not is it?

Surely you need to make decisions on how much to spend on food together?

If I were you I would spend at least £100 a week on food and have a cleaner for 3 or 4 hours a week.

Maybe you could suggest a 3 month trial of this and then review together after this how you want to go forward.

The reaction to the statements you make OP will tell you everything.

I imagine you will have to state very clearly that if he offers ongoing resistance, unpleasantness and attempts to change your new way of operating, that the upshot will be an immediate separation followed by the commencement of formal divorce proceedings.

I don't think we can stress too much (or enough!) that a rational conversation simply will not work, going over historical things and discussing them and trying to arrive at a reasonable and rational joint decision will not work. You have to tell him what you're changing then see what the reaction is. It's so NOT a discussion of any kind that you need to be having.

Please, please come back so PPs can help you unpick that reaction and see it for what it is and what it actually means as it's a very difficult thing to interpret correctly when you're there, stuck in the situation on the inside of it, and external perspective is really important for you to benchmark your reaction to his reaction.

Yes Snog, it should be possible to....

But this man is not normal and OP has not had a rational conversation with him for forever! He FINES HER for using too much hot water to clean her baby's bottle for Christ sakes!

You cannot apply normal discussional approaches to people like OPs husband.

I honestly can't believe what I've just read.

You have four thousand pounds spare each month (twice what I take home, btw) and he 'made' you pay a £20 'fine' because you'd dared to spend £6 on chicken instead of scraping together a meal from meagre fridge leftovers?

You're not allowed to put lights on in the daytime? You're FINED for using hot water?

Either this man has a very serious mental health condition (I'm being kind here) or, more likely, he is seriously abusive and controlling.

It can't go on like this, OP . You know this.

£40 a week to feed 2 adults, a toddlers, and cats?
Paying fines for buying food and using electricity?

This is financial abuse. He's a bully and an asshole.

I started off the thread thinking he’s a misery. He’s actually a nasty controlling man.

I Can’t believe you paid the fines.

Good luck this weekend OP xx

Ipuhup

I have RTFT and feel I have to add from my experience.
I would hesitate to mention leaving as a consequence of him disagreeing to the 'new normal' unless and until you have sorted out separating your finances.
My exH cleared our joint current and savings bank accounts after a discussion (well, row) like this and when I went to put a deposit down on a rental property in the process of leaving him, there was nothing there. I ended up borrowing from my parents.
I will never ever have another joint bank account with anyone.

Good luck OP I'll be thinking of you

hungryfordinner
frustratedindivorce hits the nail bang on the head:
it is nasty -seriously so. She has said it exactly:
it's not about £6 or buying chicken, it's about control

COERCIVE CONTROL, demeaning you, cold and calculating, humiliation, emotional manipulation, bullying, belittling you, putting you in the wrong, financial abuse,

you could google any or all of these,

Remember, it is serious, he won't play fair, he will manipulate you.
Most of all it is serious: “coercive or controlling behaviour” is now recognised as an offence with a maximum of five years’ imprisonment. All the examples you have given constitute controlling behaviour.
Take care. Your life is precious. You deserve to be safe and happy.

Hungryfordinner
People are making extremely wise observations imho.
Please take note of timeisnotaline saying he is not reasonable. Do not expect a reasonable discussion.
I think people here who know what they are talking about are giving excellent advice that you should avoid the details.
Keep it simple:

He is to treat you with respect.
You will not tolerate his attitude and treatment of you any more.

The money regime and food regime stops now and you say what to do.
He helps in the house on equal terms from now on.

Do not be dragged into a discussion about details. Simply repeat the same things over and over. In a firm and calm voice. (it's the 'broken record technique', I used to practise it with Clients before they did it with the person bullying them.)

If he gets very abusive say:
"I see you are not prepared to talk rationally at this time. I will leave it until you can talk in a rational and respectful manner." And walk away. If possible have your coat and your son's things ready and go out for a walk with your son.

Don't expect much, I'm afraid he won't be able to believe this is the new you!

Lots of love. We are all here for you sending love.

Sorry! I forgot!

If he manages to get you to feel you must agree with him even though your gut feeling is that it is not right, say:

"I will not decide on that now." And keep repeating that.

Go away if he won't stop.

Before you have this conversation with him, I would,d make sure you k how the exact balances of all joint accounts so that he cannot claim the money was not there. Proof of his income. Take screenshots as proof etc. So that you can take to a solicitor. I would also remove your and your kids documents - passports, birth certs etc so that you can escape if things turn bad.

DoveOfPiss. What a shitting turd of an evil hateful sod. your ex is! I am so very sorry to hear what he did.

You give excellent advice which is why I've been trying to get Hungryfordinner to change where she keeps her savings straight away into an account where he has no chance of touching it.

I have heard of so many fraudulent husbands in divorces, having been a Counsellor and afterwards I did some work in a Charity where almost all our clients were women in relationships with men like this man. The term now is Narcissist, I guess you know, sometimes Covert Narcissist, but they are psychopathic in how they treat people.

I get terribly upset when I hear of people like you whose lives have been devastated by such evil, dangerous criminals. I had to cope with one. His ways were very weirdly devious. From day one he managed to take all my money without my realising and eventually he died (he committed suicide - see earlier; and was 14 yrs older than me) and left me with such a small pension - a smaller than normal state pension- because he did things to reduce it which were legal at that time. It's too long to explain. But I am terribly worried that this OP is in the hands of a devious bastard who will just up and leave one day and she'll find that everything is in his name. It's difficult at this stage - the beginning of her feeling something isn't right - because she probably still loves him and can't believe anything as bad as we can see. I remember making excuses for my evil husband for years! I couldn't believe how evil he was until eventually I had to start looking after myself or I would be dead now.

Bless you DoveofPiss (great name!) for looking out for this OP after the horrific experience you had.
I really do hope your life is good and happy now! I may be broke but I am so happy without the bastard. Hope you are too.

HildaTablet
You speak 2 truths:

1 he is seriously abusive and controlling.
This is now recognised as abuse and is illegal. It is a condition he has and I will stick my neck out and say he will not change because he believes he is right and others are stupid.

1. It can't go on like this, OP . You know this.

The OP may take a while to come to terms with the whole thing. It is very difficult for a person who has lived for years under these conditions and has been ground down by the abuser, to see the situation for what it is.

I was a University Research Psychologist, a Counsellor and then after early retirement due to disability worked with a Charity. (see previous. post). The process of understanding and coming to terms with what the husband is doing and that he does not love her, does not have empathy, enjoys sadistic pleasure of seeing her suffer and meeting out punishments, and whose drive to control her is more powerful and dangerous than anything she can imagine, plus his need to have money in the bank, ... all this takes time to understand. The realisation leads to shock and hurt which needs careful support for the Victim.

But here there is urgency: the OP needs to move fast and not tell him. She needs to make herself financially secure, putting what is rightfully hers into her own account away from him immediately.Also having all her salary paid into her own account and paying a reasonable sum to the joint account to cover household expenses.

hungryfordinner.
I may be wrong and I hope I am. But I will say this in case.

I have had some experience of women in situations like yours. I have seen situations change suddenly when the wife tries to gain some self-respect and stop her husband from controlling her, her money and to stop him from holding her in a subservient role where he humiliates her and bullies her, setting rules about what she is allowed to do.

I have just replied to HildaTablet and would like you to read it please.

In case there should be a sudden need for you to find safety elsewhere, even though your husband may not ever make any attempt to physically harm you, PLEASE DO THIS:

Keep a bag for you and for your son packed and ready so you can leave at a moment's notice. Have whatever your son may need in it. Make sure yo have money in it and your passport with your son on it. Keep it hidden from your husband and within quick reach for you.
Have a taxi firm's number ready to hand.
If you have to leave suddenly, could you go home to your parents? You say your country is not where you live now, would it be feasible to go to the airport and fly home? If necessary you could stay in a hotel/B&B until a flight is available.

ALSO
Please do put all the money that is rightfully yours (half the savings) into your own account where your husband cannot touch it immediately. And stop paying your salary into the joint account. Have it paid into your account and put a reasonable amount into the joint account for household expenses.
Concerning the house, check that your name is on the deed and that you have joint ownership of it.

You need to be independent. Stop trusting a man who can coerce you.

I am so sorry. You are in a serious position. He will not change and will dig his heels in. You need to be ready. And don't let him know you are taking these steps.

You sound like a lovely person trying to do something really nice and considerate for you other half I dont know how you do it on 40 pounds a week nappies included.He is being so unfair and personally I think you are an adult and cook whatever you want for dinner. Best of luck

Hi guys, lots of good advice here. We have about £50k in savings, in a joint account, but it's 3 month notice account so would take 90 days to come through.

I am planning this conversation to happen tonight and will let you all know how it goes.

I don't think my husband is actually being a fully abusive person, but is being entirely selfish and and single minded that he is "right" in trying to save the world one chicken breast at a time (at the cost of our own health).

Thank you for all the advice, so much of it is useful and should be pinned somewhere for other women.