To think our Prime Minister has lost the plot and is now completely bonkers?

[EthelFechan]

We're supposed to be leaving next month.
Theresa May's withdrawal agreement was voted down in Parliament and she didn't even have the good grace to be in the Commons for the results of the latest votes on amendments.

The EU has said there will be no further negotiation on it - so what exactly is TMay discussing with them as she charges around Europe like a dementor?

There's going to be another Meaningful Vote in two weeks but how can she offer anything new if EU say they won't alter the backstop?

She looks unwell and on edge and please don't anyone say they feel sorry for her - she wanted the job and she's made a total mess of it and I don't see how she can sort it out because she's too stubborn and too vindictive. And incompetent.

I take it that you would not crack trying to deliver this so simple political outcome

I wouldn't crack because, unlike TMay, I am not deluded enough to think I could be Prime Minister. I know I'm not up to the job, the penny hasn't quite dropped for Mrs May yet.

She doesn't want to leave. She's holding off for everyone to back down. She's never wanted Brexit. She gave parliament a crap deal knowing they'd never go for it whilst pretending she's strong.

We only have peace BECAUSE of the EU, imperfect though it may be. Idiots.

Leavers usually come along at this point to tell us that it's NATO which kept the peace, so I am getting in first. They never have an answer as to how do they vote for what happens in NATO, or why has NATO always been led by an American? Where is the 'Sovereignty' in that?

And of course The Donald is threatening to abandon NATO so what the hell happens then, goodness only knows.
Personally, I’m very comfortable with the prospect of a European armed force, which I’d rather be a member of, thank you very much. What’s the alternative, Gavin Williamson on a donkey with a colander on his head leading the charge?
(Now, now, calm down JRM, don’t get yourself started on that twat 🤪)

NATO didn't keep the peace between European countries, it was an alliance against the Russians.

The sovereignty point always stumps leavers, who often also back the Donald's flawed points about other countries owing NATO.

Boris, that is my own opinion re NATO, but I just felt I had to give the Leaver party line. Sovereignty and 'taking back control' stumps them re NATO. It is of course, virtually impossible to prove what kept the peace, or why something didn't happen; it's quite difficult to establish even why something did happen.

With the Cuban Missile Crisis though as an example, we know that Kennedy and Kruschov had enough sense to negotiate instead of continuing with sabre rattling.

MIL, nearly 90, German, been here since early 50s, also staunch remainer. Wouldn’t like to repeat what she says about Gisela Stuart 😁

1950s, not her early 50s.

I'm not disagreeing with the rest, but
why has NATO always been led by an American

What do you mean by "led"?
The Secretary Generals have been from many European countries, but not one from the US.
Of the several Chairmen of the NATO Military Committee, only 3 have been from the US.
Only one branch of the Supreme Allied Command has always been led by an American; the other having an European leader from 2009.

On the subject of the thread, it feels to me that most UK politicians and leaders should be banned from Europe, as was beef due to mad cow disease.

NATO secretarg general does not make strategic decisions on who to go to war with.

The President of the United States does that.

Lewji - you have answered your own question with "one branch has always been led by an American." The point I was making was that the ardent Leavers who want nothing to do with the EU don't have problems with a branch of NATO always led by an American and another only being led by a European in the last 20 years. I don't recall anyone coming to ask the electorate about which NATO operation the UK should take part in, but as far as the EU is concerned, it's all 'take back control' conveniently ignoring the fact that we could and did propose quite a number of EU laws, and objected to very few.

Similarly with the WTO - they will whine about the EU's lack of democracy whilst not bothering to vote for MEPs, but not be at all concerned about how much control they have over the WTO.

But I take your point Lewji.

It is interested to view this video about her stance prior to becoming PM.

@scissorsandpen - Was there any clear exit strategy when they all agreed to be EU and truly does any agreement hold up all these years later?

Uum, yes. It's called Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty. Written by a british diplomat. And it's not that many years (< 10, in fact) later since the Lisbon Treaty came into force.

With regard to people who keep harking back to the war and comparing the current situation to that, Andy Hamilton absolutely nailed it the other day on the radio. He was talking about some MP who compared himself to his grandfather fighting on the beaches on D Day, and pointed out that it really is utterly offensive to compare jumping onto a beach in a hail of gunfire to sitting on a comfy bench braying "Hear, hear" every so often.

I'm not sure I agree with people who say she is damned if she does, damned if she doesn't. If she took a step back and said "You know what, this is an utterly ridiculous mess that is doing the country irreparable damage and, as an absolute minimum, we need to ask the electorate whether this really is what they want" she'd get at least some kudos for finally seeing sense. Sure, the Farages, Rees-Moggs and Robinsons of this world would go ape, but I'm not sure they'd be able to drag themselves away from their pints/whisky glasses for long enough to do anything significant about it.

Well the bloke was Scottish and it is ten years Dec 2009. Must go and have a proper read. Seems to me back to the original question is that TM is just getting it from all sides we are not united at all the referendum was so close that there was never going to be any great solution. I kind of hope they cancel brexit but we are so far down the line now it may not be possible. Who would be better if she were to resign ?

*Quite apart from the civil war, every single person in NI is or has the right to be a UK citizen. You do NOT get the chance to go 'oh, sorry, it doesn't really suit us now, could you bob off kindly?'

Imagine doing that with Cumbria. 'Nah, it doesn't really suit us to have you now, so you're not part of the UK anymore. Byeeeeee!'

Obviously not because it doesn't work like that!*

Ironically, that perfectly describes how we Brits living elsewhere in the EU have been treated for the past two years. For us, sadly, it has worked exactly like that and I for one am heartily sick of it

@scissorsandpen - Well the bloke was Scottish

Unless there has been a new, successful, indy ref, I think that makes him British too.

it is ten years Dec 2009 - Yes, as I said, less than 10 years. It is now Feb 2019.

Sorry, bold fail. Put the asterisks in but to no avail.

SaturdayNext

Yes, he said the same on HaveIGNFY. He was referring to a Brexiteer in that context ( I don’t know what the context was in the piece you heard), many of whom don’t seem to understand that we’ve had peace since then principally because of the European alliance. At the risk of “harking back”, my grandfather survived the Somme and was variously an air warden and fire watcher in London throughout the second war. I agree, such comparisons are offensive. I obviously can’t be sure, he died decades ago but his daughter (my mum) and therefore I am pretty certain he would be appalled at the leave vote. Anyone who had lived through those horrors would be terrified at the prospect of Europe breaking up again. That really would be the worst insult to the millions who really did, corny though lots of people probably think it is today if they even think about it at all, give their today’s for our tomorrows.
Healing back is sometimes a useful exercise.

Harking not healing. Beeping predictive text.

MIL, nearly 90, German, been here since early 50s, also staunch remainer. Wouldn’t like to repeat what she says about Gisela Stuart

In our British/German family Gisela Stuart and Nigel Farage are considered to be the lowest of the low.

I am alright Jack, pull up the ladder ...

littlemonkeyface

I am alright Jack, pull up the ladder ...“

That’s exactly one of the (very few repeatable) phrases MIL uses

Gisela Stewart is never asked about the ads that went out on social media during the break in campaigning for Jo Cox. Lowest of the low in my opinion.