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Why are people still deluding themselves about Michael Jackson??

999 replies

waxahatchee · 26/02/2019 18:54

If any grown man I know invited children to sleep in his bed with him there would be absolutely no question about what was going on. I am sure that most people would agree, why are so many people still deluding themselves about this?? Makes me so cross, why do they even play his music on the radio??

OP posts:
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gokartdillydilly · 08/03/2019 07:41

Anyone who says 'why did their parents let them sleep in his bed' it is akin to priests taking boys away on camps etc. The implicit trust some people have of people in a powerful position cannot be underestimated.

After watching this very harrowing documentary, I believe the mothers were groomed too.

Fairylea · 08/03/2019 07:43

I wonder how people would have reacted if he had chosen to surround himself with little girls instead?

I think people were willing to believe the whole “missed childhood” thing partly because he chose boys, he created a sort of “boys having fun together” thing (Envy- sick, not envy).

If he had been walking about pawing little girls and having them sleep in his bed I think people might have been quicker to judge.

It’s only been in quite recent years that men have been able to speak out and be recognised and supported as survivors of abuse, not only childhood sexual abuse but all kinds.

PookieDo · 08/03/2019 07:54

@gokartdillydilly

This isn’t the same for both mothers though is it? James mother did indeed spent hours on the phone with MJ, he came for dinner and stayed the night

Wades mother tracked MJ down when they brought Wade to the US for a competition after meeting him at a concert 2 years before. They went to MJ’s house and 2 days later the whole family left Wade there for 5 days - alone. He was 7

areyoubeingserviced · 08/03/2019 08:01

Does anyone know what is happening to Harvey Weinstein’s trial?
Some have suggested that this documentary was released at this time to draw attention away from Harvey Weinstein ‘s trial . Oprah Winfrey is a good friend of Weinstein

hoodathunkit · 08/03/2019 08:21

I believe the survivors.

Not because they displayed what appear to be authentic emotional responses. I have known people with false memories of abuse who displayed convincing narratives complete with tears and apparent distress.

The reason I believe them, apart from the obvious evidence, is that the narratives they describe and the feelings they describe and the situations they describe are extremely common narratives described by people who were abused, as adults and / or children, within cultic settings.

Cults leaders, whether religious cults such as for example the Children of God, or personality cults, as happened with Jimmy Savile and R Kelly, possess the skills with which to cast a spell on victims and their families and on wider communities.

One very common theme in this kind of abuse is that the perpetrator will claim that the children need to spend private time with the perpetrator for their own personal, spiritual or career development.

These kinds of perpetrators use gifts, flattery and a narrative in which they convinced he victim and their family that they are special. The victims will be depicted by the perpetrator as being uniquely creatively skilled / spiritual / clever / chosen as the next leader / etc.

One of the reasons the film The Matrix was so popular is that deep inside most people's psyche is the belief that they are "The One". Part of being a good parent in the belief that your child is uniquely special and gifted.

It is these universal unconscious beliefs of specialness and being "The One" that perpetrators manipulate in order to commit atrocious abuses.

Of course in these narratives the perpetrator is also uniquely special. They may be a spiritual guru or leader beloved of their community, they may be a wealthy, influential, powerful businessman who can "make things happen" for the victim. They may be a superstar in the field of entertainment.

What these perpetrators do, routinely, is they cultivate special, exclusive relationships with victims that undermines the victims' natural relationships with their friends and families that would normally protect them from such abuses.

Perpetrators surround themselves with loyal, complaint, brainwashed and blackmailed individuals who will support the enchantments they cast on families and on entire communities. I use the word enchantments because, while I do not believe that they are able to cast magical spells, they concept of enchantment is a useful one to describe the kind of brainwashing through social compliance and conformity that these perpetrators use routinely.

Children and vulnerable adults who are abused by these kinds of perpetrators suffer all manner of internal conflicts and divided loyalties, as demonstrated very clearly in the Leaving Neverland documentary.

I would just like to share a video clip of some children involved in a religious cult, the Children of God where the sexual abuse of young children was endemic and was promoted by a cult publication called "My Little Fish". The publication depicted photographs of adults sexually abusing children, which was depicted as a form of religious worship.

The clip is from the 20 20 documentary on the Children of God, which can be found in its entirety on youtube.

The clip is distressing to watch, obviously, but demonstrates how children can be groomed into defending perpetrators and denying that they have been abused.

teyem · 08/03/2019 08:29

Those poor kids. That clip illustrates your point perfectly hooda but that was completely unethical displaying their sexual abuse as a gotcha for television Sad

teyem · 08/03/2019 08:31

Not you, sorry, I mean the TV makers. That's the kind of poor grammar that starts fights.

hoodathunkit · 08/03/2019 08:47

@tayem
I agree

The documentary was made in the 1980s (I think) when the protection of children was not considered as important as it is now.

There is a copy of the video hosted on the xFamily (former cult members) youtube channel

Also when the documentary was made the cult was highly active, the leader, David Berg, was still alive the abuses were happening on a significant level.

Entire documentary here for context

I can understand why the documentary makers felt it important to educate people about the nature of the abuse and the fact that children would deny being abused.

The horrible thing is that most predators abuse children by making them feel special and by convincing them that other people will not understand the "special" relationship between the child and the abuser.

The cult is still active, now goes by the name of The Family International. David Berg is long dead, however many abusers within the cult are now working with vulnerable children in overseas territories, e.g. Paul Péloquin

Former cult members have a youtube channel where they make public various archival videos for the purposes of educating the public about the abuse

Please be advised that there are extremely disturbing videos there, however the videos are an important educational tool for anyone who is sufficiently emotionally resilient and who wishes to understand how these kinds of abuses can occur and how whole families can be abused and how victims and survivors may deny that they have been abused due to agonising internal emotional conflicts.

xFamily channel here
www.youtube.com/channel/UCT_ddITNzGoRMrT-WilSBIw

hoodathunkit · 08/03/2019 08:55

I could have worded the above post better.

The protection of the privacy of children who had suffered sexual abuse was not prioritised in the 80s as it is now.

I wonder how people would have reacted if he had chosen to surround himself with little girls instead?

I wondered the exact same thing myself.

Not you, sorry, I mean the TV makers. That's the kind of poor grammar that starts fights.

No worries. I understand your concerns and share them. The only people I want to fight are perpetrators

Birdsgottafly · 08/03/2019 09:13

"He should be considered on a par with all the other nasty celeb child abusers but people are so in thrall to him. You don't hear Gary Glitter on the radio."

But you do hear, Elvis, Bowie, Jagger, Bill Wyman's stuff and many others.

"I wonder how people would have reacted if he had chosen to surround himself with little girls instead?"

We still celebrate (see above) all the very Adult Men, who liked 13/14 year olds.

EmbarrassingStoryteller · 08/03/2019 09:56

@Birdsgottafly but this is so different to what you're comparing it too - did you watch the programme??

I have male friends who willingly lost their virginity at 14 - these kids were 7 and 10 and were heterosexual.

The sheer scale was so horrifying too - the way the families were groomed and manipulated and the huge numbers of boys at Neverland - we'll never know how many were abused, maybe all of them at some point.

Also that he had this huge enabling machine of people behind him, who just didn't care as long as the hits and the money kept rolling in.

There are a lot of posters on here seriously down playing the gravity of what MJ did.

nancy75 · 08/03/2019 10:00

I remember my Mum going off on one about Bill Wyman & Mandy Smith. He was 47 when he started 'dating' her, she was 13.
He didn't even try to hide it & nobody did a thing about it.

SpiritedLondon · 08/03/2019 10:06

He didn't even try to hide it & nobody did a thing about it

Especially her mother who she was out clubbing with when they met Wyman.

SaveKevin · 08/03/2019 11:13

I think child protection wasn’t seen as anyone else’s concern in the 80’s.
It raised eyebrows, people heard rumours, but it was just mums saying “stay away from mr x at number 42”. Or “I hope my daughter or son doesn’t get x teacher”.
“Ohh your son goes to x scouts”
Others just didn’t get involved, which was odd given how people were more involved in each other’s lives. People knew but it was kind of accepted. The more vulnerable kids didn’t have the parents looking out, making them easy prey.
Looking back it was fucking atrocious.
That’s before you chuck in a global superstar with power and privilege.

IrmaFayLear · 08/03/2019 11:28

The past is another country. People were "dodgy" or "funny" and parents would suck their teeth in, but nothing was actually said . Dh wasn't allowed to go to drama club, but it wasn't articulated why not. The teacher is now in prison... (as is his choirmaster - very dodgy part of the country Shock !).

After taking it as read that all paedophiles are disgusting criminals, I still blame parents. In the case of Bill Wyman, Mandy Smith was going out clubbing with her mother . WTF? The thought of clubbing with my mother... (belted mac, K Shoes, shampoo and set...).

And parents travelling with their sons to try to meet Michael Jackson. Did they know that he had proclivities in this direction? Like with Elvis women taking their daughters dressed in little girl outfits to meet him.

I'd make an example of the parents. Greedy amoral people who pimped their sons.

waxahatchee · 08/03/2019 11:43

I just went on to play music on Apple Music and Michael Jackson is currently 'trending' HmmAngry

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HairyToity · 08/03/2019 11:44

I remember at school in the 90s it being joked that if there was grass on the wicket you could play cricket. It was quite common for the 14 year old girls to be sexually active with their peers or older boys.

My youngest brother is 15 years younger than me, and he said everyone knew it was illegal to sleep with a girl under 16, and him and his friends allegedly didn't. At 16 he had a 15 year old girlfriend for a few months and it was a no way, he could be locked up!

Whilst having consensual sex with a 14 year old might not have been frowned on in previous generations, raping a 10 year old always has been disgusting.

Duckshead · 08/03/2019 12:05

What happened to Lisa Marie Presley and was it Debbie someone? He 'married' both women didn't he?

I want to say so much about the programme but it's already been said really. Can't stop thinking about it all today Sad

Confusedbeetle · 08/03/2019 12:10

Sadly Op there are still people who think he might be innocent

waxahatchee · 08/03/2019 12:27

I started this thread before the documentary and there was no doubt in my mind but having now watched it I feel so sad. What an utter monster he was

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SpiritedLondon · 08/03/2019 12:27

The thought of clubbing with my mother... (belted mac, K Shoes, shampoo and set...)

Grin. On a thread with few laughs that made me laugh out aloud.

EmbarrassingStoryteller · 08/03/2019 12:42

I didn't even know about Elvia doing this too. Dear God...

Aeroflotgirl · 08/03/2019 12:44

Michael started on James Safechuck, when he was 7! It is shocking, there has been a massive cover up, and people are now coming out in the media confirming that MJ is a Paedophile, including his own sister. MJ behaviour would be ringing alarm bells if he was an ordinary Joe Bloggs, but because he was who he is, it was hushed, and the boys were threatened by him and his people to keep quiet and that is why they did not speak out, and gave testimonies, they were shit scared. They also did not see it as abuse I don't think, it was part of the love that they had for each other.

It is only now when they have had their own kids, and they are gaining clarity, that they are realising that MJ did abuse them and that it was wrong, also they cannot contain it much longer, it had to be in the open so that they could heal and move forward. I wonder how many he abused who have yet not come forward.

There is evidence against him, another poster listed all of it. Whilst MJ supporters are saying he is innocent, and that he did not do anything, they cannot be 100% sure. The stars who supported MJ, just because they did not experience abuse, does not mean it did not happen to others. They cannot say that, and that is what Corey Feldman one of the child stars who befriended MJ is now saying.

Aeroflotgirl · 08/03/2019 12:50

Remove the star status from him, and you have an eccentric, creepy and quite dangerous paedophile. He would not have been get away with what he was doing, and having boys round his house, if he were not who he was. MJ had 2 personas, one that was for the public to see, of a childlike, talented superstar, and another dark side.

The boys mothers realised they were to blame, as they said in the documentary, how they fucked up their sons lives, seemed devastated. As some people have said on here, they were groomed. At that time, there was little known about paedophiles. Now I think it would be harder for MJ to do this, with all the knowledge and understanding people now have. It probably would have raised alarm bells in their parents and they would have prevented their sons spending time alone with MJ without them as chaperone.

TheClitterati · 08/03/2019 12:54

Otherwise perfectly sane friends on FB are refusing to believe the claims against MJ - all of them. they think these guys are simply out to make money, in the face of all the evidence to what went on. Its actually quite distressing.

MJ is the fucking Brexit of child sexual abusers.

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