Why are people still deluding themselves about Michael Jackson??

[waxahatchee]

If any grown man I know invited children to sleep in his bed with him there would be absolutely no question about what was going on. I am sure that most people would agree, why are so many people still deluding themselves about this?? Makes me so cross, why do they even play his music on the radio??

@Bellasorellaa Those things such as looking to the right means lying have been debunked by body language readers and psychologists. The emotion is the eyes, the voice, and especially the shaking of the hands of one of the victims is more than enough to convince it is genuine.

bella
I know from the McCann threads that there are body language experts as well as language analysis experts (I admit to finding the latter interesting as a linguist) but you must concede that it is neither an exact science nor is it compelling evidence, even though body language can impact witness credibility in court.

rape is always the fault of the rapist and the responsibility for the crime lies with them.

Agreed. I’ve stated that.

Imagine though, being a child, beaten and thrown on the street and being on your own at 16. And your own mother stays with the man that did this because he’s rich. You might end up with a different perspective huh? And when that same mother, years later when you have your own child, manipulates you into accepting a visit from this man because he’s ‘changed’ and wants to apologise. He doesn’t. Instead he abuses you in front of your small child. Am I allowed to get angry with my mother for enabling this? Or should I instead sympathise with her because she’s also been abused, and because she’s never had any money of her own and just wanted a nice holiday to the UK and Dubai? She thinks if we all just tolerate a bit of crap we’ll at least be financially ok?

I guess my thoughts are the result of seeing adults turning away from difficult decisions, not because they’re bad or evil themselves. But because the alternative was too hard. I get it. If the motivation is to protect your child from talking about and reliving it, I get that in part too. But trust me, you relive it every day whether it’s in a courtroom or not. I just see prolific pedophiles getting away with things and other adults making really poor decisions. Im not prepared to excuse them entirely in all this.

Body language is most certainly not a science. It’s ludicrous to dismiss them based on that.

FYI Yes, I was abused. I only realised it several years back. Well, actually, deep down I always knew it was wrong but assumed I was at fault because I started it and approached him. I was 13 and had a crush on an older man, wrote a letter to him. Anyway, a few things happened, culminating in him kissing me (while my mouth was closed, his tongue was going all over the outside of my mouth, I didn't even know that was that he was trying to do). Including something so embarrassing I have never told my parents. Not even my best friend. No one. And I never will. Because I was the one who approached him first so believed it was me who started it and all my fault so I was at least a bit culpable. I still have very mixed feelings about him and about the situation.

Regardless, he is dead now and has been for many years, he died of lung cancer.

Don't assume just because someone doesn't admit to it on here, that they weren't abused.

If it is bullshit, then you've done everything to convince me of the contrary. I have tried to engage with you, many times. I'm tired of trying to have a conversation with someone so hostile who clearly is not interested in a discussion in good faith.

Bellasorella Body language is not an exact science as behavioral scientists will be happy to tell you. First you have to establish a base norm for the individual. Reading a person is based on familiarity with that person. Its not one size fits all.

For instance looking to the left is not a sign of prevarication in everyone, some use it as an aide memoire. I do it when I’m trying to remember something that eludes me in the moment, I swivel my eyes to the left for a couple of seconds and then back and most often it comes back to me. It’s very useful when you’ve done that thing of walking into a room and forgetting what you came for, look to the left and back and it’ll come to you. Also when you’re fishing for a word that’s on the tip of your tongue.

People also look away when they’re feeling shame or embarrassment because they don’t want to articulate a painful truth, very common with abuse victims.

The nodding no when you’re saying yes is also a common defense mechanism, you’re saying yes because it’s true but nodding no because you don’t want it to be true.

It was more your lack of empathy for me and failure to even acknowledge the personal things I shared, to give background to my opinions. I’m very sorry to read you were abused. It’s a shame you could not bring yourself to express any compassion to a fellow survivor you are in direct conversation with.

People also look away when they’re feeling shame or embarrassment because they don’t want to articulate a painful truth, very common with abuse victims.

^ this is important. Looking away is not evidence of a lie.

I know this is was quite a few pages back, but award for the best post goes to unicornsrule for their educated and insightful ramblings!

"I feel he is innocent he was my idol when younger
Age 10 i bought the bad album
Saw him in concert age 18
I am now 40
He had an awful childhood
Well no proper childhood
Never went put to play etc was always rehearsing with his brothers
Never got to do what normal children do growing up
Just because a documentary has bee. Show showing 2 people saying all these bad things he has done doesnt mean he is guilty!!

Also he had a young soul , was very lonely"

Well done unicorn you don't sound at all stupid. I can imagine you bring the type to wear a Mickey Mouse sweatshirt in middle age for some reason!

And another cracking quote from unicorns

** "Why don't robson and safechuck seem upset when talking about the abuse by michael jackson"

The mind boogies! I'm speechless!

Imagine having to fight against that power, fame and wealth. I absolutely couldn’t do it, I think they’re both extremely brave.

I know it was pages ago, but seeing people attempting to put a positive spin on MJs reading collection (and in particular, Boys will be Boys) is pretty gross.

"By the same authors, Boys Will Be Boys was even more highly geared toward pedophiles. Whilst the cover is fairly modest, showing four boys in swimmers jumping into a lake, many images within are very explicit.

In Boys Will Be Boys around ninety percent of the boys are naked. The worst images are far too lewd for us to publish here, and could possibly be illegal in many countries (reaching up to 6 on the COPINE scale). We talked with someone who has seen the book, who said, “This book is clearly targeted at pedophiles. One shot shows a boy staring straight to camera, relaxing in an easy chair totally naked, his legs spread with his genitals clearly on show. Another photo shows a boy in speedos, an erection clearly visible. Yet another is of a nude boy climbing a tree, shot from below so that nothing is left to the imagination. I’ve seen similar photos often of adults in similar poses.”

And he kept it in a locked safe in his bedroom. Screams 'innocent' doesn't it?

The mind boogies!
At last, some light relief...I assume you mean boggles but I will blame it on the boogie inception

Blame it on the Boogie, laugh? No, I honestly want to cry it's all so horrific. I loved his music but those men and that testimony is just utterly damning.

to all the survivors of abuse here and everywhere 😪

My mind boogies all the time

I do wonder if people would be less inclined to defend him if his accusers had been young girls, if he'd been sharing beds with young girls and keeping photos of naked young girls in his safe.

Not that women's allegations have generally been believed more than men's, but I think it'd make the 'Peter Pan' excuses harder to push.

I agree, @ValeurNutritive . I feel that a lot of people struggle with the idea of boys being victims of SA. Rape Crisis only support women and girls. And yet, boys are, I think, as likely to be victims of SA as girls.

Yes, the abused no childhood I just love children Peter Pan bullshit wouldn't work if it was female child sexual abuse victims.

He set the whole childlike neverland crap from the getgo... he had to stay with his special friends aka children until he bought Neverland as he was still living at home with his parents at 29.... there is no way they would allow these children to stay over....

I don't know how anyone could have watched that documentary and concluded that he was anything other than a paedophile.

No-one's statements or accounts will ever be perfect but they were credible and fitted with all the other facts that are not in dispute.

Jackson lived at Emmanuel's house for a few months while recuperating after the scalp fire. They also shared a hotel room.
there is no way they would allow these children to stay over
Jonathan Spence had playdates and slept over at Jackson's family home Hayvenhurst.

Sean Lennon also slept over at Hayvenhurst.

Didn't know that. Jonathan Spence has always concerned me he looks uphappy in all press shots ( naked photograph found of him in the police raid ) very much like James Safechuck in looks. Vile all of it.