To seethe at articles like this - 'I didn't know who my friends were until I was a mother'

[Likethewind321]

This one specifically:

www.mother.ly/love/motherhood-helped-me-understand-what-real-friendship-is?fbclid=IwAR1DgYhJay05k6JEZ7s4i6blGZ3wwycCsbJhZFWB8rMf3KSq8aXR_ROXSYI

I wonder what happens to all those 'silly frivolous friends who only cared about going out and having fun' Those friends who were shallow, who never really 'got it' ?

I'll tell you! One of two things. 95% of them will all have kids too, just maybe a few months or years later. And when they do, they will then also transform into wonderful human beings who 'get it'. They may not hang out with their old friends but they will become the newfound besties of whichever mums they meet in clinic or playgroup.

And the other 5%? They won't have children, and will silently watch as their friends all turn away and step into the social world of toddler groups, playdates, birthday parties, mummy chat groups, mummy coffee dates and mummy nights out. Watch as they make new friends, friends who 'get it'. This 5% will be dismissed as having never been a 'real friend' in the first place.

And can they complain about it? No. Because if they do they will be thought of as bitter or envious. A bit lonely and sad. They will probably be pitied.

Well guess what. I think it's being childless in a world where motherhood is worshiped, to find out who your friends REALLY are.

Isn’t it something like 20% of women in the UK now don’t have children. So it’s not unusual at all.

However, I also feel that women usually don't realise the true extent of the misogyny in the world until they have children or get to a point where they will likely not have children.

I think the pressure to have children (or judgement for not doing so) comes predominantly from other women and not from men so misogyny isn't really relevant here.

Yes. To be honest I've always found the pressure to explain myself much worse from women than men. I don't think a man has ever asked me whether I'm planning on having kids, when, why not? etc...

@ItsBloodyFreezing

Exactly my point above. Men may ask someone when they first meet them if they have children but that's about the extent of it.

comes predominantly from other women and not from men so misogyny isn't really relevant here

Not at all.

Misogyny is not limited to men, it’s rife across all society and the vast majority of women (possibly all?!?) have internalised misogynistic views to some degree.

Theres pressures from being a mother too from society Ie in the old days we done xyz an it done no harm so why don't you do it. I'll be going back to work long before baby is a year and that's a crime too. Stop caring what other people think of you. People do feel entitled when it comes to judging an comparing themselves to others.

I think the pressure to have children (or judgement for not doing so) comes predominantly from other women and not from men so misogyny isn't really relevant here.

I think you need you look again at the definition of misogyny. It isn’t just men on women.

LondonJax

Yes, and I think in some ways it's easier to do things 100% swayed towards one lifestyle than the other, rather than compromise all the time.

I am happily going to stay with my friend when her baby is a few months old to help with the house, batch cook etc, have a bit of quality time with her whilst not disturbing her routine. I'm even going to remote work from her house for a day. When the baby is older, she plans for a weekend away leaving the baby with her husband for a break with me. Later, when we both have kids, we might do joint holidays. The key is that to both of us, the relationship is important!

Spot on post OP!

I have two teenage DCs, but I have quite a few friends as well as relatives who haven't had children and I have never wanted to phase those friendships out.

So much of my time is taken up with caring for or thinking about my DCs, that I really value time spent with friends without children, as it really broadens my perspective.

I really enjoy the company of mum friends too, but they are no more valuable than my non-mum friendships.

PBo83 misogyny isn't limited to presure to have children - that's a tiny little corner. Reluctance to employ/ passing over for promotion mothers of young children or even women "of childbearing age" where there is no such reluctance to employ / promote father's of young children is just one very prevalent example. Seeing mothers who ask for part time or flexible working to do childcare as cheeky fuckers who should commit themselves properly to work or stay home, but fathers who do the same as demigods is another.

Interesting that a make poster feels the need to tell the women what misogyny is.

^male

@SerenDippitysuch a bitchy comment. It's not sad actually. I had a fantastic life before having my daughter and it's even better now. Things that seemed important to me before just aren't any more and my life has new meaning since having a baby.

I'm childless not by choice. So I'm very sensitive to this sort of comment though it's just as hurtful to those who are childfree by choice.

I am fine with mothers saying things like my life has new meaning since I had a baby. As long as they don't like down on those who say my life has new meaning since I got that job, started volunteering, got a dog, whatever.
I think part of having a happy life is creating a sense of meaning. Because ultimately our lives don't have any meaning.

@SerenDippitty I am sorry that you aren't able to have children for whatever reason and that me describing my feelings of motherhood was hurtful to you. The difference is however that you were being spiteful where I was not. This thread is full of people describing their feelings about life before and after children.

You want children presumably because you think they would change your life for the better. You simultaneously would like me to pretend this has not been the case for me.

I think ultimately we all know what gives our lives meaning. It can and will change throughout our lifetime. Just be happy in what you've got!

It's weird, is it not, that there is such a very strong 'anti-mother' feeling, on a parenting website?

I don't think there is an anti mother feeling at all. There is an anti smug insensitive mother feeling.

Yes it is odd! You would think if there was one place you could freely extoll the virtues of motherhood without reprisal it would be a site called mumsnet. Apparently not!

Really Claire? The article in the OP reads to me as a personal account of one woman who felt abandoned by most of her friends when she got pregnant

The last paragraph of the OP reads as very anti-mother; 'Well guess what. I think it's being childless in a world where motherhood is worshiped, to find out who your friends REALLY are'

I've got no axe to grind. I have friends with/without kids. Don't particularly relate to the article. But, just felt there was a lot of anti-mother sentiment here. We know motherhood isn't worshipped really. And I can't imagine people having so much to say if a man had written the article about how his life changed on becoming a father.

As for 'mothers' getting priority over holiday. It's not because motherhood is valued over other family relationships. It's because schools are closed for 13 weeks of the year and 'mothers' only get 4 or 5 weeks annual leave. And because Childcare facilities aren't open over Christmas.

As for 'mothers' getting priority over holiday. It's not because motherhood is valued over other family relationships. It's because schools are closed for 13 weeks of the year and 'mothers' only get 4 or 5 weeks annual leave. And because Childcare facilities aren't open over Christmas.

Nobody should get priority over Christmas or summer holidays. Everybody’s personal life is equally valuable.

In my experience, it isn’t mothers with no childcare kicking up a fuss about having to work Christmas. It’s those who rant about Christmas being for children and won’t somebody think of them...

Childcare isn't 'personal life' though. It's a necessity. Children need to be looked after during school holidays somehow. What should parents do instead? Not everyone can afford to fork out for holiday clubs and rely on using annual leave.

If it’s mothers of school age kids then I understand (and support) them getting priority when it comes to school holiday period.

For Christmas, I also understand mothers getting priority. I know that won’t be popular on here and it’s more for sentimental than practical reasons, but I get it.

However I firmly believe that Christmas staff should be kept to an absolute minimum and that no one should be working unless they absolutely have to.

Childcare isn't 'personal life' though. It's a necessity. Children need to be looked after during school holidays somehow. What should parents do instead? Not everyone can afford to fork out for holiday clubs and rely on using annual leave.

So it’s fair for people without children to work every holiday? For those with teacher spouses never to spend any time with them?

candypuff As I posted above, the author is talking about friendships with people where you do stuff. There are different kind of friendships and real friends are there when life changes. And life can change because of many things including having babies. But many people report the same kind of thing when they get ill, disabled, their partner dies, etc etc. The OP does not understand about different types of friendships.

It’s those who rant about Christmas being for children and won’t somebody think of them

I don’t disagree with this though. I’d like everyone to have a lovely time at Christmas, but if I have to prioritise a child’s Christmas or an adult’s Christmas I know what I’d choose.