Transgender athletes in sport

[sweetheart]

My dd plays ladies football. Recently she played against a team with a player who looked and sounded very masculine. It has been confirmed since that this player was transgender male to female.

Dh and I have had many conversations about the rights and wrongs of allowing this.

This player had a significant physical advantage.

We would both be really interested to hear peoples thoughts on this

• [Title edited by MNHQ]

DandilionBreak

The reason why at the equality act isn't sufficient is because it talks about advantage. And where there is an advantage you can exclude.

But the IOC decided that testosterone constituted that advantage.

The IOC was made up of something like 14 men, one transwoman, another trans advocate (I can't remember), and four women. The women, whose rights were being debated, were outnumbered four to one.

Consequently they are ignoring all the other physical advantages, and the inherent advantage that testosterone gives during puberty. They have decided that reducing it to a level unattainable by women, constitutes redressing the advantage.

It's a house of cards, built on a a house of sand, built on sexism.

Testosterone is a bit of a red herring really.

What makes this difference is that men have a bigger reach, more grip, larger hands, bigger lung capacity etc. The list is very long.

None of these things are effected by HRT. It is the reason why an average man can beat a good woman in comparable physical contest.

It’s also part of the reason why women are afraid of men. They have all the tools to hurt use, Hunt us and kill us if they do wished.

I am three stone heavier than DH. We are both of the same level of physical fitness but he can easily pin me to the floor ( tickle fights, if anyone is interested. I always get tickled).

There’s a trans woman who plays in my local cricket team.
It’s only amateur but I know she’s being asked to help write trans policy in the league.

The women should be writing the policy, in conjunction if necessary. But it's women's sport which will be decimated across the board. Not men's.

Why should they be a woman?

I think a man’s perspective on this is different to a woman’s.

I think a man’s perspective on this is different to a woman’s.

It almost certainly is. But to quote Terry Pratchett, where people stand is not as important as which way the face, and man or not, I am in agreement with (presumably) women that this is unfair.

I also think that trans women are at an advantage because they’ve been brought up male.
They’ve been socialised totally differently. Male sports tend to get more funding, better pitches, they’ll have been put in teams with more resources and been coached differently and for different things.
It’s a well known issue that a lot of women disengage with sport, that’s why the government has pumped so much money into the ‘this girl can’ campaign.
This is not just a physical issue but a socialisation issue too.

Are there transwomen ballerinas?

There are:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/06/10/male-dancer-gender-fluid-wins-part-english-national-ballets/

Between 1921 and 1971 the FA banned women's football from its grounds. The top women earn 99 times less than the men.. average in £26k a year compared to £26m. In the.past few years, womens football has increased in popularity and women and girls are finally managing to carve out a space in many football clubs. To allow natal males into this space is truly depressing.

I don't think he calls himself a trans woman though.

Sorry, misgendered that ballerina. He is gender fluid, not a trans woman.

Male sports tend to get more funding, better pitches, they’ll have been put in teams with more resources and been coached differently and for different things.

Quite. When was the last time you heard, say, "cricket" and "men's cricket" in the same breath (when referring to both the men's and women's games). The male sport is always the priority. Women get to play as long as they qualify the fact it is the women's version.

And the perception too.

England Rugby (see, not England Men's Rugby) has it's "Lions" - with all that it evokes of strength, power, king of the jungle etc.

Women's Rugby is nicknamed "Roses" - why not Lionesses?

I am disgusted that Mumsnet have deleted my posts for telling the truth, shut women up and put them in their box if they dear disagree with the radical TRAs. May as well delete this whole thread, as it is all in the same vain not just me. Those who have XX chromosomes i.e Female are physically and biologically different to those who have XY chromosomes. Those who have XY chromosomes are stronger, bigger, and have more muscle mass and lung capacity than those with XX chromosomes FACT!!!! Therefore those who have XY chromosomes competing in biological Females sport are obviously at an advantage FACT!!! This is unfair on biological Females who are not as strong or muscular, or have the advantage of size.

I nearly got my nose broken this week, when I sparred in Kickboxing with a Biological male who was easily a foot taller than me, and physically bigger. His punches were much harder and stronger than any woman I had sparred with in the Dojo. Tell me how is that anti trans, it is a FACT!!!!

interesting article on the gender fluid ballet dancer, thank you for that jellyfrizz.

It's really interesting that he is playing a female role, but is not being asked to go on pointe like the female dancers in the same role.

The basic role has been adapted for him, the choreography has been changed for him. Not for the women doing the job, but just for him. Interesting. It implies he's not capable of going on pointe, so why does he have the part?

but still it must be galling to people like her who just want to live peacefully as women to be represented by a bunch of misogynists

I think she finds it awkward and definitely fears being attacked for being trans. Although on things like the sport issue she can see where women are coming from, she sees herself as a woman and thinks trans women should have the same rights as women. She is very sure that she should never have been a man. She is a very quiet, shy person and has never been particularly outspoken so she's never really going to argue any of this stuff though.

The Boston Marathon was the most prestigious race in the world. It had been male only for 70 years.

In 1967 Kathrine Switzer entered under her initials. She says that long distance running was frowned on for women. It was too arduous, it would give them 'big legs'.

As she approached the media van, the organisers, who were on the van, became incensed when they realised she was female and demanded she stop running.

She didn't stop.

She says, I realised that this was very, very important. This was going to change my life and was probably going to change women's sport.

Nonetheless, it took a further five years for women to be allowed to enter

Fifty years later, under these new rules, it's entirely possible for women to never be allowed to compete fairly again.

Women's rights evaporate if they're not for women.

This three minute video, by her is both moving and chilling.

m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=fOGXvBAmTsY

Datun, thank you for explaining that to me. If it all hinges on just one hormone, then it's pretty much game over for womens sports. How depressing.

England Rugby (see, not England Men's Rugby) has it's "Lions" - with all that it evokes of strength, power, king of the jungle etc.

Women's Rugby is nicknamed "Roses" - why not Lionesses?

I assume it's because the lion is the heraldic animal for England, and because they'd already used it for the men's team they needed something else. The other animals on the royal arms are for other countries, so they went with roses as that flower represents England on the coat of arms, alongside the thistle for Scotland and shamrock for Ireland.

Of course, I may be massively overthinking this!

A man should not participate in womens sports. Full stop. Men cannot become women by mutilating their bodies to look like women. Its such a simple fact made to be complex by these new gender crusaders.

MNHQ tend to be very bigoted in they police the language how they feel it should be rather than allowing free speech which is sad. They're very left.

I think she finds it awkward and definitely fears being attacked for being trans

Ironic then that the people most likely to attack her are the trans activists themselves. They have plenty of previous for attacking anyone they feel isn't bowing deeply enough at their every word. Your friend even saying they can see an issue on the sports thing is certainly deserving her of a few punches and abuse, unfortunately.

Women - including all us hideous transphobes - strangely, don't have that compulsion to violence.

Women - including all us hideous transphobes - strangely, don't have that compulsion to violence.

I'm sure some do.

DandilionBreak

Datun, thank you for explaining that to me. If it all hinges on just one hormone, then it's pretty much game over for womens sports. How depressing.

There has to be a challenge to the fact that reducing testosterone to a level unattainable by most women, even elite athletes, is not addressing the advantage.

Words have meaning. And the word advantage has a meaning.

Rachel McKinnon knows full well that tranwomen have advantage. They have virtually admitted it. (Whilst at the same time denying it, go figure their thesis).

What they are saying is it doesn't matter. Transwomen are simply women with an advantage, like any other woman with an advantage. And it's their right to compete. The fact that other women aren't as advantaged is too bad.

Almost all transactivist arguments go this way. A whole load of word salad that ends up with women being fucked over.

And this is why people's hearts have hardened.

And why they sometimes stop discussing the issue, and start discussing the sexism and misogyny driving it.

It's a mistake to only concentrate on the issue. It goes hand-in-hand with the motivation.

Many people, men particularly, will be able to discuss the issue of strength advantage, but not give a toss about how it, as a consequence, means that a woman came second instead of first, or tenth instead of ninth or don't make the team, or don't get the scholarship.

The feminist and women's rights aspect of it passes them by.

Unsurprisingly.

Dandelion it's also worth noting that the Act does not define the words woman or sex. So it has become meaningless now that men are being allowed to identify as women just on their say so.

Even though self ID has not yet been passed in law in the UK, many institutions are adopting it anyway. So the protected characteristic of sex is no longer protected.

This Open Letter to the IOC was written nearly a year ago.

If it wasn't for Martina I doubt many people would even know this is happening in sport.

If it wasn't for Martina I doubt many people would even know this is happening in sport.

It just needs a few more people like Martina, to get the discussion up and running.

This time last year, you couldn't question it in any way, shape or form. The censorship and no platforming was across the board.

Now you can. Things are moving.

Fucking hell, BOXING is open to self identifying genders at the Canadian games. Will a woman need to be killed before this is stopped?

It's a bit like a grown man pushing over a five year old in the egg and spoon race in order to win, isn't it? They're not competing in their own lane. Why not? Could it be because they're not good enough to? That's how I interpret it. It's pretty cowardly, really.