Transgender athletes in sport

[sweetheart]

My dd plays ladies football. Recently she played against a team with a player who looked and sounded very masculine. It has been confirmed since that this player was transgender male to female.

Dh and I have had many conversations about the rights and wrongs of allowing this.

This player had a significant physical advantage.

We would both be really interested to hear peoples thoughts on this

• [Title edited by MNHQ]

Taking estrogen reduces strength in people who transition, but apparently most bigots tend to overlook this. As usual.

Yes but now we're seeing people that dont have to be doing anything to transition but simply 'feel' they are different.

Its no differtent from me waking up and saying 'on Fridays i'm going to be a man'.

I have a bingo card here fully populated with all the predicted answers from bigots, quelle surprise.

It is not my job to educate your small mindedness. I do wonder if some of you realise that you can find actual scientific information via google if you just make a bit of effort, instead of the echo chamber bollocks most of you are spouting here.

But that would probably require actual effort, so you don't. This is why trans women are subject to violence and discrimination every single day. You are all revolting.

We have had the "but I know a transman/transwoman and they are nice, so I don't see any issue" argument so many times

It's the 'No True Scotsman' logical fallacy.

I've noticed that defences of transwomen in women's sport comes in two flavours, typically.

One is to cherry pick science and say "well, reducing testosterone makes people weaker." It does, but not enough, and leaves out the fact that other advantages remain - VOMax (oxygen uptake by the lungs), grip strength, height, hip anatomy (affecting the efficiency of the athlete's gait).

As far as I can see, the paper usually cherry picked is one of Joanna Harper's which had a sample size of seven.

The other (McKinnon's line, as I understand it) is to say "yes, transwomen do have advantages, but that's just because we're born lucky - like Usain Bolt was lucky to be physiologically so much better suited to sprinting than his competitors, or like a would-be basketball player born with a genetic disposition towards being tall rather than short. Suck it up, losers..."

Either way, being sceptical of these claims doesn't seem to constitute "hatred" to me.

Nor does the leap from "I'm worried as a woman about my/my daughter's participation in sport" to "random male transphobes (because transphobic beatings are almost always carried out by men, and thuggish men at that) are beating up transwomen, and it's all the fault of gender critical feminists" make much sense to me. It seems like one of those random bits of ridiculous hyperbole designed to shut down debate rather than further it.

I always suspect that the people making those claims may be a little bit lacking in their scientific education and logical skills.

And a predictable response from penisbeakers, the usual it’s not my job to educate you bollocks. In other words I have no substance to my argument I’ll just yell bigot and hope that keeps you ladies under control.

penisbeakers I did google. See my post to you earlier today:

Fairenuff Fri 22-Feb-19 10:54:50

penisbeakers Fri 22-Feb-19 05:55:44
Taking estrogen reduces strength in people who transition, but apparently most bigots tend to overlook this. As usual.

Trans women don't retain their pre transition strength, it's a myth. Google will tell you that if you take a look.

I did just that. And this is what came up Do transwomen retain their pre transition strength

So your point is..?

Also, googling as you suggested, the next relevant page threw up this:

In 2015, the IOC changed their regulations to include trans women in the women's category of events if they remained under the testosterone levels of 10 nanomoles per litre (NMOL/L) a year prior to competing, as well as during competition.
However, a born female can reach nowhere near the testosterone level of 10 NMOL/L. The average female sits at 2.8 NMOL/L and the average male 23-25 NMOL/L.

But if you want to stick to name calling and #nodebate by all means do. Your stance speaks for itself and really just illustrates the points we are trying to make on this thread and many others.

Wow penisbeakes so women are not allowed to discuss this, and allowed to have a reasonable debate around this subject. So factual information is now transphobic. Actually there are transwomen that agree with us, and are not eco chambers of the radical TRAs who throw their toys out of their pram, if anybody dares disagree with them.

www.economist.com/open-future/2018/07/03/a-system-of-gender-self-identification-would-put-women-at-risk

“there transwomen ballerinas?“

Yes there is

penisbeakers

I have been GC for the last 4 years and I have read and re-read countless medical/science/sports reports and peer reviewed studies and not one states TW are biologically female and that their male physiology is NOT an advantage when competing in sports. In fact they say the opposite.

Stop blaming women who want to protect female sports for violence against transpeople. It is a lie and only spouted by lazy people like yourself who are so scared of the facts you will use any tactics you can to close down discussion and debate.

cosmic your post x a million

Why aren't they embarrassed as male bodied trans women competing against female bodied athletes???

Quite.

Its akin to me entering the races at my kids sports days, being very proud of winning them and screaming at anyone ho objects that the kids just need to try harder and I have no advantage because wurble wurble biology doesnt exist burble testosterone burble they actually have an advantage over me not the other way around. Then a load of adults telling the kids to get over themselves when they rightly point out its not fair.

Before 'you are saying women are children' comes, thats obviously not what I am saying.

It is not my job to educate your small mindedness. I do wonder if some of you realise that you can find actual scientific information via google if you just make a bit of effort, instead of the echo chamber bollocks most of you are spouting here.

If you are making claims that there is no difference between a trans woman and women, then it is down to you to evidence that. Perhaps spend less time crayoning bingo sheets and more time reading biology text books and you would then be able to link to all this amazing evidence that exists proving your point?

As you appear unable to post a simple link to any evidence that supports your point. Weird huh.

I totally agree Cosmic, but my posts were deleted as they were deemed to be transphobic. Reasonable factual debate being shut down, by the loud bullying radical TRAs. We are not saying anything against transwomen, they have a right to go about their lives in a normal manner, what we are saying is, that despite transwomen altering their outward appearance so that they look more femanine, it does not alter their Male genetics and physical bodily structure, they do not suddenly turn into XX, they still carry the Male XY chromosomes. Therefore because of this, they still have an advantage over biological women in sport, and it is unfair. Women are being sidelined and gradually phased out so will probably be dominated by Transwomen. Well it is already happening, as women's genuine concerns over this are being shut down. It is misogny at it's finest.

Has anyone posted this yet?

fondofbeetles.wordpress.com/2018/10/01/harder-better-faster-stronger-why-we-must-protect-female-sports/amp/

I am intersex, and have lived as both sexes during my 50 odd years....
Sadly I believe that Womens sport is designed for women. It is simple, Biological males, which is what "trans women" are, and remain, even if castrated and full of estrogen, SHOULD not compete with or against women.
They have biological advantage, they know they are not biologically female.
If someone is intersex, that is a tad different, and as long as the hormone testosterone is at the level of a biological female they should be free to live and compete as women.
This is not difficult, but sadly there is a "trans agenda" which wants to undermine womens rights, both via the sports field, but even in class rooms, work place, prisons, - gyms etc.
Women MUST stand up for their rights to compete as women on a level playing field with fellow women.
Please support women and womens sports.
Trans women have human rights, they do NOT have the right to undermine womens rights to privacy nor to ruin womens sports.
I hope common sense wll prevail.

I do not use female changing facilities as I now look to male, facially etc...
I do not use male changing facilities as my body is too female,
I DO respect the privacy of both sexes for their own privacy from the opposite sex, and
I DO respect the fact that women should be able to compete in sports designed for women ONLY.

Therefore a transwoman who used to be a 6ft 3 Man built like a brick shithouse, does not automatically turn into a 5ft4 9 stone woman, just because they alter their outward appearance, and take medication. They will now be be a 6ft 4 transwoman built like a house.

You are all revolting.
Viva la revolution misogynist.

Interesting comments on the rugby names thing from previous posters - my theory was just based on what was being said,I really don't follow rugby at all, so if it doesn't match reality, fair enough.

I have a bingo card here fully populated with all the predicted answers from bigots, quelle surprise.

It is not my job to educate your small mindedness.

The only argument you appear to have actually made is that the hormone therapy involved in MtF transition reduces strength levels.

Ok, let's take that as being correct. Just let you straight up have that one as fact without even arguing it.

Does it reduce them by enough to cancel out the advantage of having trained up to that point as a man, or the other factors of size and cardiovascular capacity that men would have over biological women?

Because if not, the issues over trans women competing in women's sports are still up for discussion.

Thanks for sharing that blog post Smile, really puts the situation in perspective

Aero
I read all of your posts I think and did not see anything hateful towards TW.

I say hateful and not transphobic as everything is transphobic unless all you say is TWAW these days.

I think MNHQ delete any post that is reported even if it is based on fact and truth if just 1 person says they view it as transphobic. I doubt they are even asked to explain their reasons for reporting.

And thanks to Sam for their supportive post (Sam - this is one of the few circumstances where I've felt this to be a genuinely appropriate question - which pronouns do you prefer?) It sounds like you have had very complex and difficult issues to handle in life, which makes your thoughtfulness about women's rights all the more welcome.

You are all revolting.

You rang?

Thanks CosmicCanary, on an individual level transpeople can live their lives how they want, I am respectful to anyone who is respectful to me, and they have a right to go about their lives in safety and peace. It is on a wider level like transwomen in sports, spaces, and reasonable debate and discussion being shutdown by radical TRA and their supporters, that is the problem. They don't give any reasonable arguments or discussion back, it is usually the same soundbites such as: you are transphobic, you are a bigot, you hater, such as Penisbeaker's very eloquent post.

Not bigoted. Not revolting. Putting women at the centre of women’s sports for good reason.

Tell you what Penisbeaker, why don’t you go and make a noise about mixed sex sport? Why not go and demand appropriate and accessible healthcare for trans people? Why not fight to carve out a place in society that serves them well?

You know, like women have had to do.

The irony is, women would be trans people’s best allies if they were treated with respect and not silenced with yells of ‘transphobic!’ And ‘bigot’.

Give your head a wobble.

If natal biology doesn’t matter, why aren’t transmen competing and winning in make sports?

I took penisbeakers’ advice and ‘googled it’ and couldn’t find any stories of FTM athletes blazing a trail of success in male sports.

There is a FTM swimmer on the Harvard male swim team, Schuyler Bailar, but he won his place on Harvard swimming based on his performance on the women’s team and Harvard allowed him to switch to the male swim team after transition. No word of him blasting any new records competing against men as yet. How strange!

Then there is Mason Johnson who is a FTM rugby player currently winning games - on a women’s rugby team. No word of him playing on a men’s rugby team any time soon, despite his obvious talent. The assumption seems to be that he will have to give up rugby after he transitions fully and can no longer play on the women’s team.
www.google.com/amp/s/www.outsports.com/platform/amp/2016/11/29/13779656/transgender-rugby-quinnipiac-mason-johnson

The only example I could find of a successful FTM athlete was Chris Mosier, who placed on the national men’s team for sprint Duathlon after transitioning. He seems to be unusually talented by the standards of any athlete.

Meanwhile the stories of ‘stunning’ and ‘brave’ MTF athletes making waves in gender sport are legion. In the article I found celebrating trans athletes only 4 out of the 19 athletes they were celebrating were FTM.

That is female erasure, doesn’t matter what people think about feelings or fairness.