Transgender athletes in sport

[sweetheart]

My dd plays ladies football. Recently she played against a team with a player who looked and sounded very masculine. It has been confirmed since that this player was transgender male to female.

Dh and I have had many conversations about the rights and wrongs of allowing this.

This player had a significant physical advantage.

We would both be really interested to hear peoples thoughts on this

• [Title edited by MNHQ]

@BrizzleMint

Sport is never about being perfectly fair.
Your son may have an advantage - but as long as he is playing against fair competition, he is allowed to benefit from his good luck.

I am disadvantaged in sport in many ways 😀. But I have to accept that I can't expect to win if I am old, unfit, rubbish at sport etc etc

People starting out at sport expect to compete against people of roughly similar capabilities. So, maybe in same age range, same sex, same level of disability etc etc. These are attempts to allow more people to enjoy competitive sport without unfair competition.

but when it comes to sport, in which the division into 'male' and 'female' categories is entirely biology based, I don't think it's as simple as which gender you identify with

Then you may be interested to know that the 2019 Canadian Winter Games are allowing people to compete as the gender they identify with.

@Woollyheart

People starting out at sport expect to compete against people of roughly similar capabilities. So, maybe in same age range, same sex, same level of disability etc etc. These are attempts to allow more people to enjoy competitive sport without unfair competition.

We agree on that, I will confess to being a devils advocate in my post. I'd not be impressed in the OP's DD's situation because in a sport like football it can give an unfair advantage.

I am just an ordinary mum, with an ordinary daughter, playing ordinary football - where something a bit unusual has happened. I was just really posting to help me and dh understand that our views and general concerns for our daughters safety are not considered bigoted or transphobic - which we most certainly are not.

You won't be considered bigoted or transphobic by the feminist board. Nor by most people.

You will be considered bigoted and transphobic by transactivists.

And up until now, transactivists have managed to convince very many other people that your thinking is transphobic.

(Hence 14 year old boys being allowed to shower and share overnight accommodation with 10-year-old girls at guides.)

I totally understand that you may view this as an absolute minefield and not something that you really want to take sides on, it's just that in this particular case you don't think it's quite right.

But this is 100% the prediction that feminists made three years ago when the IOC changed their rules.

That 'normal' parents would start to feel the crunch at school/uni.

But they were pooh-poohed. That won't happen. People aren't that stupid.

They are. It is.

I wonder how many trans men will compete in the Men's events in the 2019 Winter Games?

I suspect not many, because they won't be able to compete.

This isn't about the idea of "women should be nice". I'm not the former and often not the latter

You’re not a woman?

@Fairenuff yeah, that concerns me.

I heard something recently about the idea of introducing new categories for trans athletes, or athletes affected by issues like Semenya's, by someone who pointed out that there are multiple competing classifications for Paralympic athletes. That seems a more sensible approach than the one you've linked to.

It's a mixed sex sport so there are some girls on the teams occasionally.

This is a great example of how we need to encourage more girls into sport, not barge them out of it.

I was reading the news yesterday and one article was about a female cricketer and the other was about a boxer. They didn't even bother to write 'male' boxer because it's the default that if you're talking about sports, you're talking about men.

I never had any problem accepting trans women until they allowed themselves to be represented by a minority who claim oppression because women don't want them in their safe spaces.

Many trans women don't 'allow' themselves to be represented by anyone but they can't help that some trans women are outspoken about their views which may or may not be the same as their own. The trans woman I know is just living her life. She has many trans women friends, who I don't know, but they are just quietly living their lives too.

But why aren't they raging about it DramaFreeLife?

It's not complicated, Martina has the world's support and people are speaking up. Show your support and spread the word, make your opinion heard. We all matter. Sports stars are speaking out, men's organisations as well as women's, businesses, politicians, pundits and of course Joe Public. Men fighting women is not sport.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3513064--TeamNavratilova-is-gathering-pace

#TeamNavratilova
#IStandWithMartina

Imagine if a transman was given a place on a male rowing team and the rest of the team were not allowed to complain that it was unfair. I think we would have many, many sportsmen speaking out. But because this doesn't affect them and probably never will they can keep their heads down, keep their sponsorships and keep winning medals.

Thankfully, other sportswomen are speaking out in support Martina who, in turn, is speaking for all women. They are the ones putting themselves in the firing line and thank goodness they are or we might all be heading the same way as Canada.

This is a bit off-topic, sorry, but have transwomen competed in any women's events outside those already spoken about here?

I realise that most sports and physical activities require strength, endurance and power, and most of the sports mentioned here (or perhaps all) have both male and female participants, so a move sideways into the other sex's lane is made possible. They already have the skills required.

Has there ever been a transwoman competing in a female gymnastic discipline, such as the beam? Male and female gymnasts use different equipment, so it's not just a sideways move. It would involve learning an unfamiliar discipline. Are there transwomen ballerinas? Again, similar skills but very different presentations and roles.

It may be a stupid question. I'm just trying to understand the motivation behind someone changing lanes.

You’re not a woman?

Why should they be a woman?

It's cheating there isn't any other possible conclusion.

British Gymnastics Dandelion

But why aren't they raging about it

The trans woman I know says that she just wants to blend in, she just wants to enjoy being comfortable with herself after so many years of feeling of wrong. She says that selfishly she doesn't want a fight or to represent/be a role model to anyone, she just wants to be herself.

You’re not a woman?

No, I'm a man.

Why would a trans women want to put women in the position where they can’t compete?

Surely any trans women would have empathy and wouldn’t be comfortable putting other women in this position? I’m baffled as to how many trans women in the public eye don’t support women.

Thanks.

Doesn't this bit of the act mean that it IS actually legally recognised as fair to segregate sports by sex? Am I misreading it? The only sports that probably aren't much affected by strength would be accuracy-dependent sports like archery and bowling, no? I don't get it otherwise. I don't understand why it's even being debated.

1.11SportThe Equality Act 2010 makes specific provision for sports organisations to place restrictions in respect of trans people taking part in competitions involving a gender-affected sport. A sport is a gender-affected sport if the physical strength, stamina or physique of average persons of one gender would put them at a disadvantage to average persons of the other gender as competitors in events involving the sport.
1.12The Act states that when determining whether children’s sport is gender affected, the age and stage of development of children who are likely to be competitors needs to be considered.The exclusion of trans people in gender segregated sport is only justifiable if it is necessary to secure fair competition, or, in the case of contact sports, the safety of competitors.

So, the Canada Winter Games include all the following:

• Alpine (and Para Alpine)
• Archery
• Artistic Gymnastics
• Artistic Swimming
• Badminton
• Biathlon
• Boxing
• Cross Country Skiing
• Curling
• Figure Skaing
• Freestyle Skiing
• Hockey
• Judo
• Long Track & Short Track Speed Skating
• Ringette
• Snowboarding
• Squash
• Table Tennis
• Trampoline
• Wheelchair Basketball

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3514288-2019-Canada-Winter-Games-will-allow-athletes-to-compete-as-whichever-gender-they-identify-as

No requirement for testing or medical intervention.

There’s a trans woman who plays in my local cricket team.
It’s only amateur but I know she’s being asked to help write trans policy in the league.
She is about 6”3 and has been playing cricket her whole life.
I don’t know what the women think about it. I doubt they’ve been asked.

We have had the "but I know a transman/transwoman and they are nice, so I don't see any issue" argument so many times.

If I said, "I know a Ukrainian man and he is horrible, so that means all Ukrainian men are horrible", would you say that was a perfectly fine train of thought?

Thought: it's not all about the individual. It's about society as a whole. All men. All women. Not just the nice ones you and I personally know.

I can understand that DramaFreeLife but still it must be galling to people like her who just want to live peacefully as women to be represented by a bunch of misogynists.