Transgender athletes in sport

[sweetheart]

My dd plays ladies football. Recently she played against a team with a player who looked and sounded very masculine. It has been confirmed since that this player was transgender male to female.

Dh and I have had many conversations about the rights and wrongs of allowing this.

This player had a significant physical advantage.

We would both be really interested to hear peoples thoughts on this

• [Title edited by MNHQ]

SonEtLumiere - see above.

My position comes from a combination of what I think is the best approach to take in the debate, and knowing trans people personally, to whom being told they're really just their original gender and that's the end of it would be really, really offensive.

I'm perfectly capable of being massively rude and offensive, I just recognise when it's not going to help me win an argument.

to whom being told they're really just their original gender and that's the end of it would be really, really offensive.

But it's not about gender is it? Sports are segregated by sex.

What did she actually say Callipygian that you think was a bad choice of wording?

She said that a transwoman could win big - medals and money - and could later detransition. That is true.

What words would you use to get the same message across.

It's typical of the feminist board to post their transphobic rubbish wherever they think they can spread their venom. It is passive aggressive and the reason most people have that board hidden. Now we have to hide all this crap on AIBU too.

I'm hiding this now so I won't see or reply to anymore comments.

What did she actually say Callipygian that you think was a bad choice of wording?

Terms like "cheating" and the "men pretending to be women" stuff.

The core argument that trans women have physical capability beyond natural women and thus it's unfair for them to compete together is the one that really matters, and I completely support that.

So much of sport is playing with integrity. It’s about achieving fairly, good sportsmanship. It’s integral to competition. For an individual, achieving at your best level is important. Taking advantage isn’t competing with integrity.

I have children who compete, and I have tried to instill in them from when they were tiny to be good sports people. The sense of satisfaction derived from achieving is huge. I’d would be bitterly disappointed in them if they took advantage by competing just so they could take the glory away from someone who isn’t their competition.

I'm just an ordinary 50 something woman, I've never really been interested in feminism. Until now, I don't have feminism boards hidden.

I think sport is where socialised female “niceness” reaches its natural limit for many, hence “peak trans”.

I am happy to call trans women by their preferred pronouns, to not challenge their “femininity” and even personally don’t care if they pop up in public toilets and changing rooms.

But, they have innately male bodies that have gone through male puberty and they shouldn’t be eligible for female sports. And I think this is where it crumbles, transwomen who may have felt accepted realise that there’s a superficiality to it. Although some women are kind and inclusive and accepting (me included, I think), it’s impossible not to appreciate that transwomen have inherently male bodies and those male bodies should not be in women’s sports.

I'm not even saying you have to believe trans women are women if that doesn't match your own belief structure.

Unfortunately, you can't sidestep that argument if you want to debate. They will shut you down.

We are having a polite discussion on this thread. It is possible. People can share their views without being offensive. Well at least most of us can. I believe there are a couple of deleted messages on this thread but on the whole, the debate can be had.

But the minute you start talking about transwomen retaining male physical attributes which clash with women's rights they just cannot debate. All you will get is transphobic, bigot, etc. Try it.

Why would our girls bother competing or getting involved in sport if there’s no chance of accomplishing anything? We need women in sport to inspire our young people. Women who they can look up to, and know if those women can achieve, then our daughters can.

It might be helpful to have an 'open' category in sport to trans people have somewhere they can compete.

But at the moment, the women's category is almost being treated as 'open to anyone'.

Obviously, women's sport is primarily there to allow access to sport for women who don't have the same build and advantages as those born as males.

Surely it is fairer to restrict women's sport to people born as female sex. Either make men's sport the open category or create a new 'open' category where anyone can compete.

It's typical of the feminist board to post their transphobic rubbish wherever they think they can spread their venom. It is passive aggressive and the reason most people have that board hidden. Now we have to hide all this crap on AIBU too.

Oh! We have another one!

How brave and stunning of you to come here and specifically tell us you have hidden the FWR board (although claiming that it is "most" is a bit of a leap). The millions of women who read and/or have joined MN specifically because of it will be devastated at this news that you just felt you had to announce publicly.

How will we cope, now you have made such a big point of informing us of this heartbreaking decision?

I agree, that's why I support the idea that trans women should not be in competition with biological women.

But that is not a permitted option. You have to pick either:

1. Any man can say he is a woman and he LITERALLY is one. He always has been, always will be, and you are a huge hideous transphobe to even think that there is any category or situation where their male bodies have any relevance. Because they are actually female bodies/female muscles/female penises/female testicales/female sperm etc.

OR

1. You say "no, hang on, there ARE some times when a person's biological sex is important and women should be allowed to have sex-specific places and times".

There is no "well, yes ok for this, but not for that" option with this bunch of activists.

They will shut you down.

They'll scream and shout and throw their toys out the pram - but if you maintain a position that the average person will see as logical and non combative as possible, this will be less effective to them.

This isn't about the idea of "women should be nice". I'm not the former and often not the latter. It's that you can be very assertive while at the same time avoiding as much as possible openings that let them attack you, rather than your argument.

One of the biggest reasons I'm on Navratilova's side is that her argument is actually an argument, not just accusatory noise. If McKinnon presents something that shows why Martina is incorrect, I'd listen. If she just yells "transphobic!" repeatedly, I'll continue to assume she doesn't have such an argument to present.

My position on trans issues is not the majority one on MN, but when it comes to sport, in which the division into 'male' and 'female' categories is entirely biology based, I don't think it's as simple as which gender you identify with.

I feel immense sympathy for women such as Caster Semenya- who I don't believe anyone has argued is not a woman, so the relevance of her case to this discussion may seem a little tenuous, but bear with me- but at the same time I agree with the argument that to compete in the female category, she should have to restrict her testosterone levels. I do not believe trans women can compete as women in sport unless they are willing to subject themselves to whatever intervention is necessary to ensure that they do not have an unfair advantage due to their biology being male. That does not mean I do not accept them as women- as controversial as that is on MN, I do- but sport's male/ female categories are not about gender identity, they are about biology. I would make the same requirements of any woman, whether they are trans or not: to compete in sport as a 'female' where competitors are divided by sex, you need not to be unfairly advantaged by having 'male' biological traits (not sure I've got the words quite right here but I hope it makes sense what I mean).

I really am not interested in yet another argument about whether it's biology or gender which means someone is a man, a woman or anything else, but

It really isn’t transphobic to put women at the centre of women’s sports.

I don’t understand why anyone would go for glory when they don’t have to compete. There’s nothing to be gained as an individual, no satisfaction of winning. Winning at any cost isn’t sport.

As regards the sporting issue, it really boils down to the fact life is unfair.

I can't go and compete in the paralympics because I "feel" like I am one-legged.

I can't get my pension now, because I "feel" 65.

I can't win the nursery school's spelling competition, because I "feel" like a toddler.

Life is unfair. Suck it up.
In this case, if you were a man but you are desperate to live your life in whatever stereotypes you think make a woman, then do so. But accept that there will be some unfairness attached - you can't colonise women's sports, jobs, private spaces etc - because your "feelings" don't make reality.

Suck it up buttercup.

Is it cheating though?

DS plays a sport and he's 6 foot, most of his team mates are about 5 foot 5 even though they are the same age. Is it fair for the opposing team when a boy who is much taller and stronger is playing? It's a mixed sex sport so there are some girls on the teams occasionally.

DS is obviously well on his way through puberty and many have not yet started.

I don't generally go around telling Miranda Yardley or Debbie Hayton that they are really men and they should fuck off out of women's spaces. Because they are not actively working against women.

It's not about being nice in order to eliminate the emotion from the argument.

I completely agree that that tactic would generally work in real life. Keep everything personal out of the discussion and work on the actual facts.

Unfortunately, in this instance, the actual facts are that Rachel McKinnon said they are a biological woman, they have said that even reducing testosterone should not be necessary and that it wouldn't matter if transwomen did dominate female sports, as it's their right.

Rachel's Twitter feed is open to all, and this is actually what they say.

When you add that to Rachel's PhD thesis being called

"Reasonable Assertions: On Norms of Assertion and Why You Don't Need to Know What You're Talking About"

.. rather begs the question over what actual facts you need to discuss. Because 'men's strength over women' is not only a dot in the distance, it's not something that Rachel even thinks is part of the equation.

uwspace.uwaterloo.ca/handle/10012/6619

CallipygianFancier - yes yes yes yes. I completely agree.

If McKinnon presents something that shows why Martina is incorrect, I'd listen. If she just yells "transphobic!" repeatedly, I'll continue to assume she doesn't have such an argument to present.

I agree. I would absolutely love to hear McKinnon have a well thought out, calm debate.

McKinnon did have that opportunity when they were invited to debate with Nicola Williams, a representative of Fair Play For Women on BBC 5Live. McKinnon refused to take part in the debate unless Nicola Williams was dropped.

So Nicola Williams was dropped.

#nodebate

If McKinnon presents something that shows why Martina is incorrect, I'd listen. If she just yells "transphobic!" repeatedly, I'll continue to assume she doesn't have such an argument to present.

I agree there are very many people who react this way. You'd think that most people would react this way, actually.

Because it's a rational, reasonable independent thinking approach.

But there are several reasons why people don't react this way. The first one is fear. There is an element of you have to agree 100% with the most ridiculous nonsense - or you're a bigot.

There is genuine concern over being called a transphobic bigot. People have been fired, ostracised, and of course threatened and actually hit, on that basis.

The second reason is that trans lobby groups have trained the police, universities, the NSPCC, sporting bodies, and the government. And there is a misconception that is woven throughout, as a result.

Hence where there is a distinct lack of arguments, people say but can't you just be nice, because it's not fair. That holds absolutely zero water as an argument, but you will be amazed how often it's used.

I do think, however, that many people are looking at this erupting in the media and concluding that Martina is right.

They're not coming out and saying it, though, are they?

You have to wonder why.

Thanks everyone for your comments - didn't ecpect to spark such a heated debate. I don't really want my thread moved to the feminist board because (naively) I don't really want this to be a feminist discussion.

I am just an ordinary mum, with an ordinary daughter, playing ordinary football - where something a bit unusual has happened. I was just really posting to help me and dh understand that our views and general concerns for our daughters safety are not considered bigoted or transphobic - which we most certainly are not.

DS plays a sport and he's 6 foot, most of his team mates are about 5 foot 5 even though they are the same age. Is it fair for the opposing team when a boy who is much taller and stronger is playing?

Isn't that the reason that kids' sports are generally sub-divided into age group team? The under-11s, under 14s etc. To mitigate as far as possible the fact that some kids will be developmentally ahead. At least the opposing team COULD field someone as tall and strong.