Transgender athletes in sport

[sweetheart]

My dd plays ladies football. Recently she played against a team with a player who looked and sounded very masculine. It has been confirmed since that this player was transgender male to female.

Dh and I have had many conversations about the rights and wrongs of allowing this.

This player had a significant physical advantage.

We would both be really interested to hear peoples thoughts on this

• [Title edited by MNHQ]

PS. Should I go Die In A Fire now, or later?

You are the one acting like a victim, noone is taking anything away.

Tell that to the woman who came 4th when Rachel McKinnon won and essentially pushed her off the podium.

I posted in the Martina Navratilova thread about this also - basically, I agree that it is unfair for trans women to compete with biological women in sports.

But.

I think people need to lay off things like "it's cheating", and especially "they're men" or "its men doing XYZ". It's unfair to trans people, those of whom I have met have all been very genuine in that this really is who they are. They see themselves as women not men (or vice versa), and want to be treated as such. It's not some cynical exercise in gaming the system, and insisting on pushing back with an attitude of "men pretending to be women" is pretty nasty tbh. They are not an attack on other women just by dint of their very existence. This is probably where Navratilova came unstuck, and I think a lot of the attacks on her are because of this.

You can support the argument that trans women have an unfair advantage in sport against natural women without having it descend into this.

On the "cheating" - yes, if it's a deliberate, cynical attempt to compete with an advantage. I suspect in some cases it is and others it isn't, it's entirely possible that it's just a case of being recognised as a woman means you get put in the women's division. If someone does that deliberately, yes, that's a bad thing, but it's a hard one to prove, and accusing someone of actively cheating is a bit of a loaded term, especially in professional sport.

As above, you can make the argument as to why it is not a fair competition and should not be happening without making the accusation. It doesn't actually [i]matter[/i] if it's deliberate or not, the result is the same, unfair competition.

Trans people have a pretty shit time of it in many ways, I don't think it's helpful to accuse them of such things when the argument that trans women shouldn't compete with biological women holds up entirely independent of doing so.

It’s all fun and games until you start getting mtf competitors in boxing and other combat sports.

So no, I don’t think transgender “rights” have a place in sport.

penisbeakers Fri 22-Feb-19 05:55:44
Taking estrogen reduces strength in people who transition, but apparently most bigots tend to overlook this. As usual.

Trans women don't retain their pre transition strength, it's a myth. Google will tell you that if you take a look.

I did just that. And this is what came up Do transwomen retain their pre transition strength

So your point is..?

Also, googling as you suggested, the next relevant page threw up this:

In 2015, the IOC changed their regulations to include trans women in the women's category of events if they remained under the testosterone levels of 10 nanomoles per litre (NMOL/L) a year prior to competing, as well as during competition.
However, a born female can reach nowhere near the testosterone level of 10 NMOL/L. The average female sits at 2.8 NMOL/L and the average male 23-25 NMOL/L.

I just look at these 'athletes' and wonder how they have so little shame, they should be mortified that everyone knows they're competing on an unfair basis and thinks they are cheats. It takes some brass neck to continue under those circumstances, they must know that people think they're pathetic surely? It's like the 'third space' issue with toilets/changing rooms, the logical (and fair) thing would be for trans women to campaign for their own spaces and categories but they show us time and time again that that's not what they're after, they only want the things which rightfully belong to women.

of course it's cheating. Why aren't they embarrassed as male bodied trans women competing against female bodied athletes???

From www.velonews.com/2018/10/news/commentary-the-complicated-case-of-transgender-cyclist-dr-rachel-mckinnon_480285
Pushback from female racers

But what if the rulebooks are wrong? Track racer Sarah Fader believes the IOC’s rules create an unfair situation for cis women (cisgender refers to individuals whose gender identity matches their birth gender).

Known by some cycling fans for her maiden name, Caravella, Fader raced in the U.S. professional road scene from 2006-2015. Fader was set to race against Dr. McKinnon in the masters finals in Los Angeles. She was the defending masters world champion in the event, and she set the fastest time in the qualifying heats. She beat Dr. McKinnon in both a 200- and 500-meter time trial during the weekend.

Fader, however, told me that she felt that racing against Dr. McKinnon was simply not fair. Dr. McKinnon stands six feet tall and weighs 200 pounds. Fader, by contrast, is 5-foot-5 and weighs 135 pounds. So minutes before the finals were set to start, she pulled out of the competition entirely.

“I thought that doing it this way was my own form of protest,” Fader said. “I knew that I personally did not agree with the situation. I don’t want to compete in a sport where the rules are unfair.”

In my conversation with Fader, she spoke about Dr. McKinnon with a calm tone of respect. She did not use mean or insulting language, or question Dr. McKinnon’s trans status, as critics often do online. Fader was cognizant that Dr. McKinnon’s position placed her in a challenging position. She believes the current rules simply place athletes like her at an unfair disadvantage.

Prior to the race, Fader said she read about Dr. McKinnon online, and also read the rules governing transgender participation in sports. Some of the articles Fader read — columns that questioned the science behind the IOC rulings — made her question the current rulebook on transgender participation. Fader said she does not blame Dr. McKinnon for competing in the event; rather, she disagrees with the rules allowing her to race against cis women.

“I’m not blaming Rachel for competing. A lot of people are calling her a cheater, and she’s not a cheater because the current rules allow her to do it legally,” Fader said. “I just don’t believe the current rules.”

Fader says her opinion was upheld by what she saw in the qualifying rounds. In Fader’s eyes, Dr. McKinnon dominated the other riders at the competition. Her power on the bicycle was simply too great for tactics and strategy to overcome, Fader said. And when Fader learned that Dr. McKinnon had switched from road cycling to track racing less than two years ago, she also questioned her inclusion. Fader is a cycling coach, and she believes Dr. McKinnon’s rapid rise from track newbie to world champion is a sign of an unfair advantage.

“It’s taken some women five to eight years to get that fast and [Dr. McKinnon] made these leaps and bounds in a few years,” Fader said. “For her being such a beginner and being able to hit these times that took us years to hit how do you even measure that progression?”

Other female competitors shared her opinion, Fader said, however, they were scared to speak out publicly against Dr. McKinnon. These riders feared being labeled discriminatory and insensitive, and thus kept their opinions to themselves. Indeed, one other rider from the race reached out to me to share a similar opinion to Fader’s. This rider wished to remain anonymous.

“There’s a lot of sensitivity here. I’ve spoken with women who are afraid to give their opinion because they think they will be deemed to be discriminating against transgender people, or that people will think they hate [transgender people],” Fader said. “I don’t think it’s about discrimination, I think it’s about looking logically at the rules.”

I broadly agree, Callipygian, and the transwomen I know in RL are indeed just quietly trying to get on with life. And they should be encouraged to get involved in physical activities where biological difference isn't an issue (there was a thread a while back which I found quite absurd, where someone was complaining about a transwoman in a park run - which is meant to be a non-competitive, encourage mass participation sort of event). Of course even in amateur sports there will be occasions where biological sex still needs to be the determining factor - contact sports like women's rugby simply won't be safe with biological males in the scrum or ruck.

However, I think these people competing at the top levels either know exactly what they're doing and are doing so quite cynically, or are deeply in denial about reality (which is their problem, but shouldn't be imposed on the rest of women in sport).

I mentioned upthread the example of Jaiyeh Saelua, who chooses, as a transwoman, to continue to play men's football. She's accepted that sometimes life forces difficult decisions, and she's taken the principled choice of holding off hormone treatment (which might make her feel psychologically more at ease with herself) in order to continue playing the men's game, and campaigning for greater acceptance of gender-non-conforming people within the men's game. really admire her.

I do not, however, admire people who transition at an age when most elite athletes of both sexes are retiring, then go on to win medals because of their physical advantage, and everyone pretends this situation is fine (Laurel Hubbard, for example).

I think people need to lay off things like "it's cheating", and especially "they're men" or "its men doing XYZ". It's unfair to trans people, those of whom I have met have all been very genuine in that this really is who they are. They see themselves as women not men (or vice versa), and want to be treated as such.

The thing is, they may see themselves as women, but they have still gone through male puberty. How they feel doesn’t erase their physiological advantage.

CallipygianFancier, so why are they not campaigning for their own category then? If what you say is correct then they themselves can see the unfairness of the current set up, why are they not railing against it and trying to change it from the inside?

This should be moved to the feminist board.

This is probably where Navratilova came unstuck, and I think a lot of the attacks on her are because of this

No it’s not. Did you see the way Rachel McKinnon spoke to Martina earlier this year? Rachel M hounded her - calling her transphobic and being vile, even when Martina apologised for a comment that wasn’t good enough for Rachel. Rachel carried on and on - it was really unpleasant.
It is Rachel M who has created the shitstorm around this.

This should be moved to the feminist board.

Why? Many women on here are sportswomen themselves. Many have daughters who play sports. Why should this discussion be "corralled" in a relatively obscure part of the boards, which won't show up in the active threads on people's phones?

You wouldn't be advocating "no debate", by any chance?

Why should it thecute?

Yes, FermatsTheorem, I don't deny at all that there's likely people who really are doing this deliberately with an eye on the fame/success/prize money.

But I think it becomes a fine line to tread without such statements being leveraged as evidence of bigotry, at which point those with opposing views are going to push hard from that perspective to silence and discredit those making such statements.

All I'm really saying is you can have (and, i believe, win) the argument about trans women in sports based purely on the facts and data surrounding their capabilities relative to natural women.

You can support the argument that trans women have an unfair advantage in sport against natural women without having it descend into this.

I don't think you can if you choose to believe the ideology that transwomen are women. Like actually are women. Even with no physical transition at all.

According to TRAs you either say that you truly believe that in your mind or you are a transphobic bigot.

Remember #nodebate and acceptance without exception which were the mantra of TRAs?

We don't see as much of that these days. Since more and more people started speaking out against it, they have dropped the #nodebate. They realised that it made them look like bullies.

Although debate is the last thing they want. Look at the way Rachel McKinnon is trying to get Martina kicked out of the BBC for example. Simply for stating a true fact.

#nodebate

Yes, move it to the feminist board as we wouldn’t want it to get too much attention now would we...

Ironically, I feel that the insistence of some trans women that they belong in women’s sport is the very epitome of male entitlement.

nolongersurprised - I agree, that's why I support the idea that trans women should not be in competition with biological women.

HidingToNothing - I don't know. Maybe ask them. Thing is, if you avoid having a go at them for "being cheaters who are really men", you've got more chance of actually having that conversation!

SmileEachDay - I think Navratilova's choice of wording and approach opened the door to McKinnon being able to behave like that without being called out on it. It's not a nice tactic, but she's leveraging it hard. And unfortunately it does work.

Fairenuff - I disagree. I'm not even saying you have to believe trans women are women if that doesn't match your own belief structure.

I'm saying sidestep that argument entirely and you are less vulnerable to the "scream at them for being bigots until you win" approach being used.

Callypigian I see what you're saying about talking to people. And in general it is an admirable strategy.

But a quick scan of for instance McKinnon's twitter feed at the time they first got involved in arguing with Martina Navratilova, and how vicious McKinnon's attacks rapidly became, or a look at the screenshots of Hannah Mouncey calling a (very reasonable, measured) woman on twitter a "cunt" for questioning "transwomen are women," quickly leaves you feeling that some of the very prominent trans athletes pushing this line are completely beyond the reach of rational argument.

These are not nice people, and they are not fighting fair, and unfortunately experience so far suggests that trying to engage with them rationally leads (a) to a barrage of abuse and (b) a situation of "give an inch and they'll take a mile."

It is wrong and shouldn't be allowed.

I don't post on the feminism boards but I do read them and learn a lot. It's where I learned about all of this because there's nothing about it in mainstream news really.