To refuse this sleepover - 13 year old

[secretsquirrelthethird]

Namechanged for this, as don't want it linked to my posting history.

I have a 13 year old daughter (just turned 13). A year ago she moved schools, and has taken a while to settle in and establish a friendship group. So far so good, has been to some parties and has had sleepovers with a couple of her friends.

It's a bit of a minefield now she is older, but we insist on talking to parents first if she is having a sleepover and take her to the house so we can meet the parents (and establish that they are there!). This may seem a bit heavy handed, but I have a 22 year old, so have grown a bit wise and suspicious..... my daughter objects to this, as she feels it makes her "babyish", but at the same time she understands we are making sure she's safe.

She has a friend in her group who is a trans boy (FtM), who goes by a boy's name at school, and insists on pronouns him/his/he, let's call him James. James' friendship group is all girls.

My daughter has now asked to go to James' birthday party and join in with a sleepover at James' house, as two of her other friends are going. After asking, all of them are going to be sleeping in James' room on blow up beds. I have said no, as I would not let her sleep at a boy's house on a sleepover, and as James is identifying as a boy, I will treat him as such. My daughter said "oh but James isn't really a boy, he just thinks she is, so why can't I sleepover? You let me sleep over at girl friends, what if they were lesbians?" This is causing no end of arguments, and I do feel sorry for James if this is going to impact on the birthday celebrations, but to me if James is identifying as a boy, then I should be treating him as a boy in all aspects.

I have offered the compromise of attending the party until 10.30pm and then I will pick her up, but apparently the sleepover is the best bit, and I am just doing this to be mean.....

My older child was a boy, and whilst we had similar sleepover issues, we haven't any experience of transgender friends in this scenario.

Do you think I am being unreasonable?

@blueskiesovertheforest

James identifies as a boy and expects to be accepted as a boy. His parents no doubt support and accept this. For others not to do likewise is transphobic.

Responsible parent refuses to allow her 13 year old daughter to sleep in any boy's bedroom overnight.

What am I missing?

Loughers you're missing what the OP's dd sees and states - James is a natal female and can't impregnate anyone.

Damntheman
Are you also saying I should stick to my guns and insist on treating James like a boy in every way including whether I let my daughter sleep there? To be honest when I first posted I was so sure I was in the right by affirming James was a boy and treating him like such I was surprised by the almost blanket responses that I was being unreasonable. We have to be able to talk about these issues without being labelled transphobic, as I genuinely want to treat James in a respectful way, but my stance was quite cruel to a young person, which was not intentional at all.

I'm very confused - have you talked to Jame's mum or dad?

They have a blue brain in a pink body

This statement makes me feel so uncomfortable.

@ittakes2
No I haven’t talked to them yet as I had said no to the sleepover so there was not need to talk to them. I won’t be talking to them about James’ gender anyway as that’s not my place to discuss with them unless they raise it, just the usual things I ask such as are adults going to be in all night, what’s their phone number, give them my number in case there’s a problem, what time do they want me to pick her up, does she need any money etc

Why yes, @SmileEachDay I can do your research for you. Although a simple google search would have found the relevant research articles that answer your question in a matter of moments. www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.htm Trans is not a 'mental health' problem, it's literally being born in the wrong body.

@blueskies and yes, James has the right to change his mind later (he probably won't) but that does not mean that his very real medical issue should be laughed off simply because he is thirteen. Trans children commit suicide because of a lack of support, I would not want to risk that in my own children. Better that they have the support and space necessary to figure out who they are than that they suffer in fear of judgement.

James identifies as a boy and expects to be accepted as a boy. His parents no doubt support and accept this. For others not to do likewise is transphobic.
This, so much this.

OP I think you should treat James like James. This sleepover isn't just James and your DD with no parental supervision. It's a group of girls and James sleeping over together, the likelihood of shenanigans happening in that situation is low and James could probably really use the support right now given the unpleasant world we live in. On the other hand, she is YOUR DD and thus it is your decision. The very fact that you've accepted James as who he is speaks volumes for your care and consideration. You had fair logic, although I personally would let her go. I'm not you though :) If you do decide to not let her go, I would not consider your reasoning transphobic. What do James' parents think about the sleepover?

I haven’t told her she can go yet, as it’s half term she was not up when I left for work.

Damntheman
I don’t know what they think - presumably the same as any other parent wanting to give their child a nice treat for their birthday with their friends?

I am planning to offer up an outing to DD to invite James and another friend to go on their own, something like a subway/maccies and a walk around the shops, then back here to watch Netflix with some popcorn and then will drive both friends home. At least I will have met James then, dd hadn’t yet told him she can’t go to the sleepover (was probably relying on pester power) so hopefully will be no awkwardness.

Damntheman in no other situation does supporting a young teen mean unquestioning, unthoughtful, blanket belief of everything they say even when it might harm or isolate them. Critical thinking and questioning are learnt skills. Children are masters of cognitive dissonance but adults shouldn't be, and it's rarely a mentally healthy approach to a challenge!

Blueskies if my child told me that they needed a doctor I would very likely believe them and get them to a doctor. Doing otherwise would be neglectful and shocking.

Do you really think trans kids don't go through a barrage of talk therapy and doctors appointments? I've seen the process several times, it's not easy or fun, no kid is going to claim to be trans for a jolly. Disbelieving a trans kid is what will exclude them and drive them to dark places, not supporting them while they explore and discover who they are.

OP I think that plan sounds great! You're really going the distance for your daughter, I hope I can be as considerate when my children hit their teens

Damn trans children commit suicide because of lack of support is simply untrue. Go back and do your research.

Children with gender dysphoria do have serious mental health problems and I wish people would stop proclaiming it isn't a mental health issue because eventually the government will start listening to this be remove the very little good mental health support we already offer - which would be catastrophic.

Mother is it categorically true. I have done my research thank you very much. And it has been proven to be a physical issue which will hopefully stop people sidelining trans people as 'simply mentally ill' and get them some real help.

m.health24.com/Mental-Health/Brain/News/being-transgender-is-not-a-mental-disorder-who-decides-20180621

Your research is a year out of date Mother. and harmful.

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924933817318357

Science research paper states lack of family and social support as the FIRST risk factor for suicide attempts in trans people.

DD's best friend has identified as trans for about three or four years (they are now 16) and DD has had sleepovers at 'his' house many times, and they have shared a hotel room when I took them away for a weekend. I took the view that as a physical female, DD's friend was not a risk.

There have also been some group movie-and-games-plus-sleepover- nights with one actual boy present, but he is very definitely gay, so again, I have not had an issue with that. If there was a boy in the group who identified as a girl (but might still be sexually interested in girls) I would be more worried.

Just to add - DD is very on board with trans acceptance etc but she doesn't seem to think it is odd/discriminatory/transphobic that I treat her friend basically as female for room-sharing purposes.

Motherofcreek
They have a blue brain in a pink body

This statement makes me feel so uncomfortable.

...because it's such nonsense.

Damntheman
it's literally being born in the wrong body.

FFS

I know this isn’t a majority opinion, but I agree with you. It doesn’t really raise questions of risk - it’s about treating James in the correct way. He has identified as a boy. He wants to be treated as a boy. You are treating him as you would a boy.

The counterfactual scenario (ie that your DD wants to sleep over with a MtoF transgender friend) is a different one because it DOES raise questions of risk - the friend could get your DD pregnant.

I don’t think people should be afraid of drawing that distinction tbh. As a parent you have to assess risk all the time and that can mean not treating people exactly the same way.

Juells I literally posted peer reviewed scientific evidence that trans peoples' brains function more like their preferred gender than their birth gender. FFS is just uneducated, and transphobic.

suicide attempts and actual suicides are poles apart. I'm glad you rectified your statement. Suicide attempts are horrible but there is not the mass death count some people insinuate.

FFS is just uneducated, and transphobic

Everything is transphobic in your world.

Humans can not change sex. Humans can not be born in the wrong body. Neither can animals.

They aren't really poles apart.. One is successful and one is not, and the ones that are successful? You're unlikely to ever know the true reasons. Suicide attempts shouldn't even be happening at all! With the right support and acceptance the numbers could be reduced right down.

No Juells, only transphobic things are transphobic. Sex and gender are very different things. Gender is a sliding scale anyway! According to peer reviewed science humans can and are born into the right body, denying science does not make it not true. What other science do you deny? Vaccines?