MIL - ladies first rule...

[Summertimeandlivingiseasy]

AIBU to feel that is not necessary lesson for a 6 year old. Staying at MIL for 2 week holiday. She encourages kids to eat healthily and behave on promise of a sweet treat. (Which I don't mind) my 6 year old gets all excited when she gets the sweet box out but then MIL insists his 8 year old sister can choose first as it's polite to let 'ladies to go first'. He then gets upset as his big sister always gets things before him. We've always taught them guests first and have occassionaly mentioned ladies first. Is it something everyone teaches their sons from a young age? Is it fair with siblings?

I do find all this interesting. It seems very clear cut to me, but of course people have different views

To pick up on this, I wouldn’t want my DH to relate or behave towards me as if I’m interchangeable with one of his male friends or something. I know I’m equal to men, just not the same.

I wouldn't want DH to treat me as interchangeable with one of his male friends or one of his female friends (he has lots of both) I'm not his friend (or not only that!)

I do expect my male friends to treat me (and other female friends) in a broadly similar way to their male friends, I expect my work colleagues to treat me broadly the same as male colleagues, I expect my parents to treat me in broadly similar ways to DB (or at least for those differences to be based on our personality and circumstance, not gender)

Similarly with some of your examples, it's about specific situations in which someone might have skills/attributes which means it makes sense for them to do something.

E.g.
If we were at home to an intruder I would not expect DH to go downstairs and put himself at risk. But as he's over six foot and I'm 5"3 it would make sense if he moved furniture to barricade the door so the intruder didn't get in and I climbed out the window to get help (or whatever!) But that's common sense, not chivalry.

And of course I don't claim that removing chivalry will solve the equality problem (I don't know enough about Japanese culture to comment on the situation there) but I do want to challenge sexism in all its forms, even when it seems to benefit women. Although as I and pp have said, I don't think that's the whole picture.

Also, rather late reply to @PBo83 to say thank you for your respectful reply to my post- we will agree to differ but nice to have friendly debate on the internet!

Because, as has been explained, we’re talking about a particular kind of decency and respect within the male / female dynamic. This is not mutually exclusive with wider good manners, obviously. I guess if you don’t relate to it though, then nobody’s going to change your mind.

If you don’t see that its harmful for society to want men to treat women as if they’re always in need of looking after, that’s a real shame. There’s no way that that message doesn’t influence wider views of women. It’s certainly not viewing them as equal.

Because, as has been explained, we’re talking about a particular kind of decency and respect within the male / female dynamic

This dynamic is essentially summed up as men look after women, women are grateful and polite to the men that look after them. Does this really have any place in modern anxiety?

Society not anxiety.

This dynamic is essentially summed up as men look after women, women are grateful and polite to the men that look after them

And it has been used for ages to control women and police their behaviour.

If you got on the bus or a train and there was only one seat and your DH just plonked himself down, would you be ok with that because I certainly wouldn’t be - I’d be livid.

Why livid? Unless there's a drip feed about why one of you needs a seat more than the other where's the harm in him having the seat and you standing?

If that was DH and I it would entirely depend on the day we'd had and who needed the seat the most or split the journey. On a bus that busy we'd likely both end up standing next time someone got on who needed the seat more.

I don't like the idea of teaching my sons that women need to go first anymore than I like the idea of teaching my daughters that they need men to let them go first.
Plus anyone who has the mindset that strongly that they put the 'ladies first' thing onto a 6yo boy over his 9yo sister probably has other sexist views that they are showing and teaching (threads about men being served first, better cuts of meat etc).

Oh dear. Do you get along with your mil mostly, just leave it, you can’t control everything but you can make them aware that you think it’s actually a bit silly because girls and boys are equal but, not that long ago and that some people still think blah blah.

I don’t mean blah blah, not important, just that lots of really good things have already been said.

@PinkSmitterton

Thanks, I do enjoy a good debate :)

I joined this website as I heard it referenced in a clip on FB about 'Is Ladies First Outdated'. I'm a 39 yer old man, I was gobsmacked that it was my mother who hammered into me that women are to be respected, I am to stand when they enter a room, offer them a seat, open doors etc - not because I expect anything in return, but because that's what I'm 'supposed' to do, but Eleanor Mills on 'This Morning' said it was a transactional behaviour, and that I would only be doing it because I expect sex in return... My eyebrows have just come round from the back of my head, and I'm interested to hear the opinions of the ladies in the group (according to Eleanor , this is most ardently felt in 'young women' - her words, not mine!).

Jamie - well, as you can see, there are strong views either way . There was a thread last week in which some people were adamant that men only pay for dates if they’re expecting sex. I can’t say I’ve ever found this to be the case at all. In my experience of life, men with no manners are more likely to “expect” certain things and have a more misogynistic opinion of women overall. Maybe it’s a generational thing for those of us 35 plus?

Jamie - do you REALLY stand when a woman enters a room? 😂

That is so silly, I can’t quite believe it.

F1amingo - Indeed there are!!! I can understand that the paying for meals/tickets/trips could be construed as paying for something and expecting 'something' in return - that makes sense. If I've been out on a date then I offer, but never argue and just wing it. It's a fine line between trying to appear flash/flush and patronising, and not being a miser.
EdWinchester - I REALLY do! Not every room, but if I'm having a meal or at dinner or lunch etc. I was taught that it was etiquette, the same way that I can be in the pub with mates of either sex, and I was taught that you never shake anyones hand sitting down, you always stand up, or the same for a kiss on the cheek. I'm not saying any of this is 'right', just that my mother HAMMERED this into me - and you will not meet a stronger or more ardent advocate for equal rights than her!!
I'm not here to troll, to argue or mansplain my point of view, but to get out of the bubble that I live in and see what other people think, and listen. If my behaviour is upsetting people because it's outdated, then clearly I need to update my behaviour.

If my behaviour is upsetting people because it's outdated, then clearly I need to update my behaviour.

You really do. Honestly, any woman I know would think you a smarmy twit if you leapt to your feet at the arrival of a woman in a room. It’s utterly ludicrous.

I don't think there's any need to be rude, as I said this is the way I was raised by my mother. I will take onboard what you've said and modify my behaviour.

Not being rude, just telling you honestly how you come across.

Most of my male relatives will stand when a woman enters a room, hold the door, let a woman go first (unless it is into a 'strange' place in which case they go first to ensure there is no danger!), walk on the outside of the pavement (again in order to deal with danger) etc etc etc.

I remember back in the 70s being at a posh party once where they'd opened all the connecting doors in the downstairs rooms making one very long room. A male cousin was at the other end of the room to me; I was sitting and pulled out a cigarette, was searching for my lighter when there before me was my cousin, lighter alight in front of me. He'd got through the crowded room, 50 foot away from me, in about 2 seconds, simply to light my fag.

They are all like that.

Well having been raised by a very strong feminist, and (literally!) having it beaten into me, you using the words 'smarmy twit' and 'utterly ludicrous' you don't find even slightly rude? Especially when I'm on here to discuss, not troll what is and what isn't considered to be acceptable in 2019. I'd say (if I took your opinion on it's own) I have carte blanche to do nothing for anyone. Pregnant and standing? Should have been careful or had an abortion. Old and need a hand with heavy shopping? Should have done it on the net. Struggling with a pram? Get a swaddle wrap. In a seat I like the look of? I'll pull you out of it and throw your bag on the floor. Throw a drink over a guy for saying 'hello' in the wrong tone of voice? Have you ever been punched (properly, I mean as if by a rugby player), because it's 50/50 if you'd survive. If you want absolute equality then, you want Darwinism. Be careful what you wish for...'Utterly ludicrous', isn't it....

Jamie why do your examples escalate from ignoring someone (which sucks but meh) to physical assault (pulling someone of their seat,punches) ?

You really do. Honestly, any woman I know would think you a smarmy twit if you leapt to your feet at the arrival of a woman in a room. It’s utterly ludicrous

See, you're speaking for yourself there. Not every woman. Where did he say he "leapt to his feet?" That's you hypebole and dramatising, he merely said stood up.
I'd fleetingly think you don't see that often now, but certainly not "ludicrous" etc.

This is how men deal with each other - that's my point. It goes from ignoring someone to getting belted in face. So just how much equality do women want?

I wouldn't think you were a smarmy twit, Jamie, but I would think you were ol fashioned. Sometimes that's nice, so it would depend entirely on your general behaviour and a lot of other things, whether I liked you or not.

DH has an ex-con mate, who pops round quite often. This guy grew up in and out of children's homes in SW London in the 60s, his mum couldn't decide whether to 'keep' him or not, and he stands up when I come in and won't sit until I'm seated. I really like this guy, actually, and he's not at all smarmy, very 'working class' if you like to describe people in those terms, largely uneducated but intelligent and interesting. Intelligent and interesting is what matters to me, not the rest. And I'd still like him if he didn't stand for me.