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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

MIL - ladies first rule...

197 replies

Summertimeandlivingiseasy · 19/02/2019 06:01

AIBU to feel that is not necessary lesson for a 6 year old. Staying at MIL for 2 week holiday. She encourages kids to eat healthily and behave on promise of a sweet treat. (Which I don't mind) my 6 year old gets all excited when she gets the sweet box out but then MIL insists his 8 year old sister can choose first as it's polite to let 'ladies to go first'. He then gets upset as his big sister always gets things before him. We've always taught them guests first and have occassionaly mentioned ladies first. Is it something everyone teaches their sons from a young age? Is it fair with siblings?

OP posts:
F1amingo · 20/02/2019 14:11

But the way men and women relate to each other IS different to how men relate to men, or women relate to women. Always has been always will be.

PBo83 · 20/02/2019 14:19

EVERYONE should have manners.

I don't think there is anybody that disagrees with this.

Chivalry is just an extended sub-set of manners which men adopt when speaking or interacting with women. It's not necessary, it's not functional but many people believe it to be respectful and courteous.

As the previous poster said, nothing bad happens if certain behaviours aren't adopted:

  • Taking your hat off/lowering your head if a funeral procession passes
  • Shaking someones hand at the end of meeting
  • Thanking bar staff when they serve you
  • Holding doors open for the next person
  • Bowing for the queen
  • Keeping your voice down when you visit a religious site

Nobody dies if we don't do the above things but we do them as it's an accepted form of courtesy.

theFavourites · 20/02/2019 14:20

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

PBo83 · 20/02/2019 14:21

Corrections:

Queen should have had a capital 'Q'

AND, in my fourth example, of course something bad could come of that if it's a heavy swing door and you let it go in the person behind you's face"

JacquesHammer · 20/02/2019 14:52

Chivalry is just an extended sub-set of manners which men adopt when speaking or interacting with women. It's not necessary, it's not functional but many people believe it to be respectful and courteous

And you're still missing the point. Why are we attributing decent behaviour as "chivalry".

- Taking your hat off/lowering your head if a funeral procession passes
- Shaking someones hand at the end of meeting
- Thanking bar staff when they serve you
- Holding doors open for the next person
- Bowing for the queen
- Keeping your voice down when you visit a religious site

Are you stating they're male behaviours?

Gentlemanly and ladylike have large areas of overlap but there are certainly differences. @Jaques, you can't have your cake and eat it. Picking areas for equality and areas for equity make you look hypocritical and incoherent in your arguments

Please do outline where I'm picking areas.

PBo83 · 20/02/2019 15:03

And you're still missing the point. Why are we attributing decent behaviour as "chivalry".

I'm not missing the point at all. I'm saying that chivalry is a small part of decent behaviour which refers specifically to men's behaviour towards women.

Are you stating they're male behaviours?

No. I'm stating that they're things we all do that are completely pointless other than as a mark of respect and courtesy. The pointlessness was the relevant part.

All men could stop all 'gentlemanly' behaviour tomorrow and nobody would be harmed. Realistically it's actually no skin of my nose at all if I don't stand up for a woman on a train (in fact it gives my legs a rest) but I do it out of courtesy and respect.

F1amingo · 20/02/2019 15:14

Jacques - with respect, I think you are missing the point.

Of course there are some behaviours or manners that are distinctly male, yes. You would take great umbridge at that, but I think most women would not. In fact, many / most women are attracted to these behaviours. How boring would the world be if we were all the same? I think you see being “feminine” as weak or inferior, but I don’t and maybe this is the difference. I wouldn’t want my DH to relate or behave towards me as if I’m interchangeable with one of his male friends or something. I know I’m equal to men, just not the same. I am a woman and I know how I feel and relate to men and that’s that really. You might relate in a different way and that’s up to you.

JacquesHammer · 20/02/2019 15:26

I'm saying that chivalry is a small part of decent behaviour which refers specifically to men's behaviour towards women

Yes....and I've asked repeatedly (a) why we aren't being decent to everyone and (b) WHY.

Of course there are some behaviours or manners that are distinctly male, yes. You would take great umbridge at that, but I think most women would not. In fact, many / most women are attracted to these behaviours

Not at all. In my experience most men who display chivalry are "performance manning" - they're basically trying to say, "look at me, look how I treat women, how great am I?!"

I think you see being “feminine” as weak or inferior, but I don’t and maybe this is the difference

Definitely not. I'm feminine myself. But I also don't expect to be treated differently because I'm female.

Hold the door for the next person regardless of sex, take your turn, be patient, say "please" and "thank you". I'd far rather everyone did this, don't you think it would be more pleasant?

PurpleDaisies · 20/02/2019 15:32

Realistically it's actually no skin of my nose at all if I don't stand up for a woman on a train (in fact it gives my legs a rest) but I do it out of courtesy and respect.

I’d be pleased if men stopped asking me. I don’t need the seat any more than they do. Save the offering of seats for those actually less able to stand and don’t treat women as if they are infirm.

PurpleDaisies · 20/02/2019 15:33

Presumably you also respect other men PBo83. Would you offer one a seat?

F1amingo · 20/02/2019 15:34

I do hold the door for people Jacques in general life. But I wouldn’t open, for instance, the car door for DH or help him out if the car in a way he might do for me when I’m in heels or whatever. because that would look ridiculous. I don’t know why you can’t see the difference.

JacquesHammer · 20/02/2019 15:36

I don’t know why you can’t see the difference

Because I can open a car door and get out of one quite successfully myself. It’s giving a message I wouldn’t care to receive.

But if you’re happy that’s great. And obviously your DH knows that. So no issue.

F1amingo · 20/02/2019 15:49

Thinking about all this - my son is 15 now but he looks older because he’s already 6 ft 5. When he has friends over who are girls, he’ll always walk them back to the tube if it’s dark, or even in the day. Nobody told him to do this, he just knows. Should I be telling him to let them go by themselves, just because they have two legs and can walk as well as him?

JacquesHammer · 20/02/2019 15:55

When he has friends over who are girls, he’ll always walk them back to the tube if it’s dark, or even in the day. Nobody told him to do this, he just knows. Should I be telling him to let them go by themselves, just because they have two legs and can walk as well as him?

Well does he ask them? Or does he assume that because they're female they'll want him to? Some girls will want this, some won't. The assumption would be the issue.

F1amingo · 20/02/2019 16:15

I don’t actually know if he asked them or not but I’m sure they’d have something to say if they were offended. I still would say it’s better he assumes he should go with them, rather than leaving it to them to worry or to have to ask.

Gth1234 · 20/02/2019 16:21

This is similar to a couple of other threads on which my carefully thought out views have been "dissed", so I won't give you the benefit of my thoughts on this occasion.

PurpleDaisies · 20/02/2019 16:25

Should I be telling him to let them go by themselves, just because they have two legs and can walk as well as him?

The language of “letting” women do something really bothers me. They are free to choose to do as they please. They don’t need your son’s blessing to walk alone.

PurpleDaisies · 20/02/2019 16:26

What a totally pointless post Gth1234

F1amingo · 20/02/2019 16:43

Gth - why come on to make the point that you will not be making a point? Grin Grin

Purple - yes I see what you mean there, though tbh I might say something similar myself eg. “I can’t let that grandmother carry all that by herself”.

PurpleDaisies · 20/02/2019 17:04

Purple - yes I see what you mean there, though tbh I might say something similar myself eg. “I can’t let that grandmother carry all that by herself”.

What if she wants to?

PurpleDaisies · 20/02/2019 17:25

To clarify, there’s nothing wrong with asking any person who looks infirm or less able to stand if they been assistance/a seat. There is something very wrong in assuming that women should be treated as if they fall into that category.

F1amingo · 20/02/2019 17:36

It’s more about decency and respect rather than assuming a woman is infirm. If you got on the bus or a train and there was only one seat and your DH just plonked himself down, would you be ok with that because I certainly wouldn’t be - I’d be livid. (This is assuming he doesn’t have an unseen disability / has just run a marathon / has a bad back etc etc, ie assuming all things are equal to avoid going round the houses on that one).

JacquesHammer · 20/02/2019 17:39

It’s more about decency and respect rather than assuming a woman is infirm

That’s the difference for me. I wouldn’t find it at all respectful if it were assumed I was in need simply because of my sex

If you got on the bus or a train and there was only one seat and your DH just plonked himself down, would you be ok with that because I certainly wouldn’t be - I’d be livid

We’d just say to each other “do you want to sit”?

PurpleDaisies · 20/02/2019 17:40

If you got on the bus or a train and there was only one seat and your DH just plonked himself down, would you be ok with that because I certainly wouldn’t be - I’d be livid.

My dh is just as able to stand as I am so we’d stand for half the journey each.

If it about decency and respect, why aren’t men expected to offer seats to other men?

F1amingo · 20/02/2019 18:05

“If it about decency and respect, why aren’t men expected to offer seats to other men?”

Because, as has been explained, we’re talking about a particular kind of decency and respect within the male / female dynamic. This is not mutually exclusive with wider good manners, obviously. I guess if you don’t relate to it though, then nobody’s going to change your mind.