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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

DS and DD Wage Difference Surprise

285 replies

Thatstuffedbear · 17/02/2019 11:49

DD, 29, is a nurse, went to uni, did placements of 12 hour shifts in various hospitals as a student, all for zero pay. Fast forward and she is now a band 6 nurse on a busy nhs ward doing 13 hour day and 12 hour night shifts, often gets verbally abused by patients but loves her job.
She gets free uniform but has to pay to park. Her salary is now 28k after 7 years.

DS, 21 decided uni wasn't for him and was lucky enough to be offered an apprenticeship straight from school. Got paid from day one and will be a qualified gas engineer in the summer. He has a permanent job lined up, he has free uniform including shoes, a phone, all paid for, a van, and an allowance to buy tools. His starting salary at age 21 will be 36k.
He works 8 hour days and admits a lot of time is spent in the van drinking tea waiting for the next job.
I love both my DC equally and am so glad they are in jobs they love but AIBU to think a nurse should surely earn more than a gas engineer?

OP posts:
LivingDeadGirlUK · 17/02/2019 18:30

Your daughter has the potential to earm more in the future, she can get promoted to supervisor, ward manager etc while your son doesn't have as much uoward progression potentual without going into design/consultancy.

Alsohuman · 17/02/2019 18:30

I imagine there's quite a disparity in workload and intensity between a an MIU and a hospital ward or A&E.

OhTheRoses · 17/02/2019 18:42

My stepfather did an apprenticeship as a carpenter. Sold a substantial building firm five years ago, not mega but a couple of mill. V little formal education but shrewd and good with people.

CantWinLotteryIfDontBuyTicket · 17/02/2019 18:45

Guess that's why so many of them emigrate, it gets written off.

Not quite true...

CantWinLotteryIfDontBuyTicket · 17/02/2019 18:47

In what way does a nurse make life or death decisions? I was looking at the job description/requirements for a nurse the other day funnily enough, it may have been on the Prospects website, I can’t remember. It essentially comes down to advocating, being caring, demonstrating compassion, handing out tablets. They can’t diagnose, take blood, etc. I do think there is a cultural meme of holding nurses up as some amazing heroes but honestly if you actually look at the job description - compared to (say) firefighting - they are quite handsomely compensated!

Alarae · 17/02/2019 18:48

Nature of the sector, nothing to do with gender.

I am in tax, recently completed my additional qualifications and my salary has increased to 42k at 26. While I do have a degree, you do not need them. A lot of firms have school leaver schemes, or you can start in a trainee position at a small firm and move to a larger one closer to qualification.

Nursing in general is horrifically underpaid for what they do. Remuneration should not be paid partly in salary, and part in self-satisfaction.

cheminotte · 17/02/2019 18:55

I think girls get told ‘find a job you love’ and boys get more focus on the money.
I assume that the local authority pays the gas engineers well to compete with the private sector (British Gas etc). Whereas the NHS doesn’t have as much competition so doesn’t have to pay as much.

CountFosco · 17/02/2019 19:06

But no credit at all is given to the level of candidate required

I'm a scientist, I had the qualifications to do medicine but thought it would be boring in comparison to doing science and so earn half what a doctor of my age and experience does. Way more interesting job though and on way more than average salary. Shit pension though in comparison to public sector. Luckily DH is public sector so although our salaries are similar he's looking at a pension 3x mine.

VioletCharlotte · 17/02/2019 19:15

Nursing pay is shockingly low. I work for the NHS and part of my role involves recruitment and retention. We're in the SE, house prices are high and nurses can't afford to live. So they either go to the private sector, stay in the NHS but move to an area where the cost of living is cheaper, or leave the profession entirely.

Graphista · 17/02/2019 19:33

"It's generally the jobs that make money for an employer that are better paid." As someone with a leaning toward the Marxist I have to agree. Most extreme examples of this usually seen in the capitalist dystopia of USA. Look how their healthcare works! (Or rather doesn't) their hcps may be on better pay but it's very much paid for by the patients rather than employers (I hope that makes sense) has lead to people going into the medical profession for money/status rather than primarily out of a genuine concern for patients (I was rewatching "what to expect when you're expecting" that AWFUL scene where the racing drivers son is able to get his wife to jump the epidural queue by flinging a wad of cash at the anaesthetist!) and the patients in the most need (poor, unemployed, homeless, mentally ill...) are denied/have extreme difficulty accessing treatment!

"So his peers trot off abroad, taking with them the thousands of pounds which the NHS has invested training them, to a better life" I do think this is wrong, they should either work X amount of years in Nhs or outright repay that investment before they sod off!

I do think we have a problem with nurse recruitment at the moment and for last 10/15 years, from talking to friends who are ex colleagues particularly one who is directly involved with training new recruits the lack of applicants is leading to poor applicants being accepted. She estimates its now at the point around 1/3 of the new trainees she deals with are dismissive of the "menial" tasks like bathing, bedpans, changing beds, even taking obs was her recent shocking comment - 2 nurse trainees who thought taking obs was "beneath them" 😱 wtf!!

"I think girls get told ‘find a job you love’ and boys get more focus on the money." We need to question and challenge why this is though. It goes back to when women were supposedly only going to be working until they married (this was never a reality for the working class they've always kept on working and I think I'm right in saying it was only the case for mc women for a relatively short period of time). So they didn't "need" a wage. Now, especially under austerity policies households if they contain 2 adults need them both to be working to pay the bills.

And as ever on Nhs threads I attach my wee pic of Noam Chomsky 😉

DS and DD Wage Difference Surprise
Graphista · 17/02/2019 19:33

"Nurses don’t actually do all that much." I bloody DARE you to say that to the next nurse looking after you!

I've been a nurse in both Nhs and private sector - like fuck do they "not do that much" and as for "in terms of responsibilities and capabilities, I think they’re paid quite handsomely for what they do" PLEASE show me a job where those performing it have done a MINIMUM 3 year full time degree at the same time as basically working full time and shifts at that AND where they're responsible for people's living or dying AND who have to constantly maintain their professional knowledge and keep up with new research AND who get paid less!

"And yes, I have nurses in my family - and they tend to agree!" Again I wonder if they're actual registered nurses or hca's or similar? Not because hca's don't do an extremely valuable job (and should also be paid a damn sight better than they are!) but it's not the same.

And on the post below - what the actual fuck!!!

"In what way does a nurse make life or death decisions? Assessing patients inc obs and recognising a patient has life threatening symptoms for starters! I'm out of it a long time - I can still spot a diabetic about to hypo, certain indicators a stroke or heart attack is about to happen or is happening. Performing cpr! Or not as per patient choice and instruction. Drs are rarely actually on a ward!

I was looking at the job description/requirements for a nurse the other day funnily enough, it may have been on the Prospects website, I can’t remember.

It essentially comes down to advocating *which can and does include dealing with a dismissive dr, or other hcp when you know the patient well and know their symptoms do need closer investigation, speaking - literally - for patients who can't, knowing the bureaucracy and how to wade through it so the patient sees the right people...

being caring... Do that ALONE for years on end for multiple quite often unappreciative people and tell me it's not at all tiring! This also includes meeting basic needs like bathing a patient who has multiple "wires" that can't be removed for various reasons and who is in pain and quite possible also not compos mentis and thinks you're trying to hurt them and "fights back", feeding a patient who thinks the food is poison or even has just had a lot of stomach troubles and is scared!

demonstrating compassion -where to start? Listening, knowing when a hand hold can mean the world while also being able to recognise those patients for whom a handhold can make them react badly, understanding multiple types and levels of brain function, understanding everyone's pain is different...

handing out tablets - checking the prescription is correct, understanding the MILLIONS of possible meds, doses and interactions, remembering that X patient has to take X med with food as they've a sensitive stomach or that they hate the taste or some side effect but it's an essential med and they need encouragement to take, Knowing how to administer via the various routes (oral, suppository, intravenous intramuscular), knowing if it's a time sensitive med...

They can’t diagnose - yes they can

take blood - what the fuck? Even in the 60's nurses were taking blood!

I do think there is a cultural meme of holding nurses up as some amazing heroes but honestly if you actually look at the job description - compared to (say) firefighting - they are quite handsomely compensated!" ODFOD! And never use a nurse again!

OhTheRoses · 17/02/2019 19:54

graphista the problem with the NHS is that those who work for it think it's free. It isn't, it's free at the point of delivery but we, the scummy public pay for it.

I think there's a significant issue with entry standards. Those going in through access courses are rather on a par with sen's ime. Also a huge difference between calibre in local SE hospitals compared to teaching hospitals. Vicious circle. Our local hospital has been inadequate since 2014. It can't get good staff for toffee - the good ones leave. I wouldn't go there.

Alsohuman · 17/02/2019 20:15

Now bursaries have gone its only going to get worse

HelenaDove · 17/02/2019 20:21

"Presumably if your ds is rude to a client he will be dismissed"

Not always They seem to get away with it when its HA tenants.

Waveysnail · 17/02/2019 20:21

But that's bottom of a band 6. When she gets to top of band 6 she will be on 36k

cheminotte · 17/02/2019 20:47

The problem is the man earns 50k and woman earns 25k at age 30 works in an average couple even if the woman carries in working after marriage (normal now) and kids ( increasingly normal, but may reduce hours). But if the woman is a single parent or in a relationship with another low earner then the suns no longer add up. It is basically the assumption that the woman NEEDS to earn less than the man.

Mmmhmmm · 17/02/2019 20:48

Nursing pay is sadly crap in the UK.

Graphista · 17/02/2019 20:59

Ohtheroses - I agree I have certainly come across hca's (mainly bloody consultants!) who take the "what are they complaining for they're not paying for it!" Shitty attitude!

On the calibre issue... I was among the very first to train when it became a requirement to get a degree, I'd actually applied when it was the old rgn system and think I would have preferred training that way, my training was seriously lacking in some ways because (as is always the case with these things) the govt had rushed in the new training without properly informing or preparing the people doing the training! It was my placements that were the most useful! I was fortunate to have mentors who were "old school" and took no shit nonsense!

One in particular I was last lot to be put on that ward and by the week before had heard no end of horror stories of how tough and demanding she was! And as a result I was kinda dreading it!

As it turned out I LOVED that placement largely because of her!

Perhaps a kindred spirit thing, she was a "traditional" Irish nurse who'd gone into nursing at a time when it was either be a nurse, a nun or a bride where she was from (she was also gay though didn't hugely advertise the fact, so I think that was possibly a factor in her decision too). She reminded me a lot of my gran (of Irish descent - first of her family born in Scotland, albeit much younger) and was brisk, professional and extremely skilled and very well respected by the other qualified staff.

Around this time other things in the medical profession were changing, most notably to me less strict visiting hours, less strict on things like how beds were made, when obs were done, whether they were done for all patients etc - she was a bit of a maverick bucking against this trend Iirc her introduction was something like

"I don't care how other wards operate on THIS ward we do things the RIGHT way.

That means
regulated visiting, no visitors on the beds or in patient loos

beds WILL be made properly
DAILY

proper hygiene practice will be performed and I do spot checks

obs are 4 hourly minimum for all patients

clear handwriting at all times, print if your penmanship is poor but endeavour to improve it (admittedly I probably remember this one cos my handwriting is shit!)

Uniform is clean & pressed & worn ONLY on ward not on the filthy bus you're travelling in on - get in on time to change and BE ON WARD for start of shift and be properly prepared - I am not a stationery cupboard administrator so at least 2 working pens at the beginning of shift and keep your notebook tidy.

You are here to learn so if you don't know something ASK even if you're just a little unsure eg if an obs doesn't seem quite right don't ignore it check with someone.

There is NO task for which you are "too good" if I tell you to mop up a pool of vomit mop it up you will."

She had the best stats in the very large teaching hospital regarding length of admission & outcomes (her patients recovered quickly and fully), hospital acquired infection (I think at that point she'd had a good few years since she'd even HAD a case on her ward), pressure sore prevention and treatment (geriatric care so many were admitted from shit care homes with awful sores that were quickly and effectively treated - her treatment approach even at the time was considered old fashioned even aggressive - but it bloody worked! And she would have considered it shamefully poor if a patient developed a sore while on her ward)... Anyway you get the idea.

She and I got on well, having similar humour and approach to life, I was raised to be a "grafter" and no task beneath me and I love when an employer is very clear on expectations, she was also the only mentor I had that didn't prejudge me based on my being (at that time - I wish it were true now!!) a blonde, slim, fairly pretty and chatty/outgoing girl - I had one mentor actually admit they assumed I was an "airhead" based on my looks and my chatty/relaxed personality and that I'd surprised them by proving I was also an effective observer and listener.

I was asked by her to take on responsibilities other students hadn't been and at the end of the placement she said she'd happily have me back once qualified. It influenced me to work in that specialism though sadly not with her (thanks to stupid love 😂 married ex at end of training he was army and he got posted). I often wonder what would have happened if I'd ditched the (now ex) fella and gone to work with her, I think I'd more likely still be nursing, rather than have been put off by shit bosses elsewhere.

Sorry bit of a combination of rant & reminiscing there.

I agree that recruitment criteria need SERIOUS review but as per good ol' Noam that's not in current govts interest agenda to destroy the Nhs

"Now bursaries have gone its only going to get worse" absolutely! But as per above paragraph there's a clear intention there.

hey you! Not seen you for yonks!

BarbaraofSevillle · 17/02/2019 21:07

But that's bottom of a band 6. When she gets to top of band 6 she will be on 36k

Plus shift allowanes, which probably take the salary above £40k.

A £30-40k salary is only 'shockingly low' if your idea of normal is typical banking and law salaries in London. Half of people in the UK earn less than £20k and the mean average is around £28k, so when you take shift and high cost area premiums into account, most nurses earn above average pay.

Not riches, obviously, but in a lot of the country, nurses will be earning well above average for the area,enjoy a good standard of living and be easily able to afford to buy property. Plus also the comfort that you are always likely to be able to find employment when and where you need it. Not many people have that peace of mind these days.

Sadly the high cost area premiums go nowhere to meeting the additional cost of working in London and the south east. Maybe the answer is subsidised housing in high cost areas?

CantWinLotteryIfDontBuyTicket · 17/02/2019 21:11

Nurses are not trained to take bloods at university now. The lady doth protest too much!

OhTheRoses · 17/02/2019 21:18

Good for you Graphista and good for her.

Hello Helena sorry about your gas engineer. Mine likes three sugars ;).

It's all about expectations isn't it. When I was little 50 years ago, nurses were impeccable and something to aspire to. Lately not so much. Recently I had a procedure at the local private hospital. The nurse was a bit off and a cpuple of weeks later I saw her in Sainsbury's screeching like a fishwife and swearing at a male friend she had bumped into. It was friendly banter but didn't feel professional or acceptable in the community where she works and her patients live. I appreciate she wasn't on duty but to patients she may have dealt with can't imagine it to be inspiring.

Something has gone very wrong with the training and professional expectations.

BarbaraofSevillle · 17/02/2019 21:21

Taking blood isn't a job that is considered 'too skilled' for nurses, but ironically quite the opposite.

Phelbotemists take blood and they earn even less than nurses, about £18k pa, which I think is band AFC 3.

Graphista · 17/02/2019 21:46

Ohtheroses - thanks. Personally I think nurses like my Irish mentor should be the ones designing training and setting recruitment criteria!

"Nurses are not trained to take bloods at university now" if true (a quick google suggests not completely and is not think much of a course that didn't include this) that's shocking! It's a basic and necessary skill across all disciplines and confidence in doing so is a HUGE factor in doing it well.

Nothing against phlebotomists (who also deserve better pay) but there are times where taking blood or inserting a cannula can be an emergency task.

I have dreadful veins, very thin, deep and "slidey" - the only hcps who've "got me at first stab" have been phlebotomists working in blood donation (and not even all of them), midwives and my current practice nurse (who started in neonatal care! So like the midwives she's used to dealing with tiny veins).

I've also got a naturally very low hard to take bp - so I was something of a Guinea pig during training "if you can do it on Graphista you can do it on anyone!" 😂

Again, confidence is crucial in taking properly manually - I still don't trust autosphygs!

Graphista · 17/02/2019 21:47

Argh typos - I'd not think much of a course that didn't include this skill

Bearberry · 17/02/2019 21:55

I’m a nurse. As for the gender element of your post, and the comments about how men can be nurses. Yes they certainly can, and in my experience they are consistently promoted at a considerably faster rate than female nurses. Thinking of where I work and the management structure we have... the vast majority are men. Same pattern seen when I look at the career progression of nurses I trained with, men move up the bands much quicker. Somewhat strange considering the vast majority of nurses are female Hmm

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