DS and DD Wage Difference Surprise

[Thatstuffedbear]

DD, 29, is a nurse, went to uni, did placements of 12 hour shifts in various hospitals as a student, all for zero pay. Fast forward and she is now a band 6 nurse on a busy nhs ward doing 13 hour day and 12 hour night shifts, often gets verbally abused by patients but loves her job.
She gets free uniform but has to pay to park. Her salary is now 28k after 7 years.

DS, 21 decided uni wasn't for him and was lucky enough to be offered an apprenticeship straight from school. Got paid from day one and will be a qualified gas engineer in the summer. He has a permanent job lined up, he has free uniform including shoes, a phone, all paid for, a van, and an allowance to buy tools. His starting salary at age 21 will be 36k.
He works 8 hour days and admits a lot of time is spent in the van drinking tea waiting for the next job.
I love both my DC equally and am so glad they are in jobs they love but AIBU to think a nurse should surely earn more than a gas engineer?

Quite right too that we have nurses, but the OP can’t complain at the income disparity when I assume we all know what nurses earn. I do, that’s why my DD won’t be encouraged down that route. Paying to park at hospitals too!!

Have only read to page 4, but suggest that women tend to prefer to look after people and have social relationships where men look more for power and influence. Women value human contract, and men don't mind it but are quite happy to stop at machine level.

Teachers (and most public service workers) are badly paid because there is one dominant employer for their skill. Wages don't rise unless the skills are in demand and there are multiple employers trying to hire them.

Computer programming used to be seen as a female job and was poorly paid. Then the Silicone Valley nerds got involved, it became a male dominated profession and salaries shot up

Teaching used to be predominantly for men (women had to resign when they got married, after all) and well paid and respected. Then the marriage bar was lifted and women became the dominant sex in the profession, and salaries and respect dipped.

Obviously completely coincidental

Women value human contract

Am I normal? I hate interacting with people, prefer animals, plants and books.

I have a vagina btw

Looking at nursing scales and overtime/unsociable allowances etc, I just don't get that nursing is badly paid. My contract (senior staff/public sector) says I work the hours required. I rarely work less than 50hpw.

At the end of a shift nurses go home. When they have done 37.5 hours they are on overtime. Band six plus overtime, pension, sick pay, holiday pay doesn't look too bad to me. Especially outside London.

If I complained continually about my t&cs to my stakeholders I'd be in very bad odour.

If nurses can earn more doing other jobs then they should. I guess in London a nurse could earn £50k as a PA but outside, probably not.

Some of the DC's friends in banking or coding are on £60k plus at 24/25. Some will reach well into 6 figures for much of their careers, for others it will be less permanent.

DS is 24 and doing a masters. The firm he did his gap year with and for whom he still works full-time have offered £40k.

A lecturer, often Oxbridge, often published and post phd gets about £39k, scale up to about £50k.

I really don't think nurses are that badly paid. Every time I have asked a nurse a question they have responded "I don't know" "I'm not an expert". I asked my hv about the link between immunisation and allergy "I don't know, I only know what's in the leaflet". Still felt she cd tell me it was her job to make sure my baby was immunised though. I was and am pro immunisation despite the storm against it in 1994. The response wasn't professional though and I think it sums up the level of expertise which is not professionall, evidence based expertise which obviously merits more money.

My Dd is a prison officer and it shocks me to hear that the religious leaders who come in and speak to the prisoners are paid a massive amount more. ( this isn’t a slur against religion at all) Sorry this doesn’t actually go with the thread but I just wanted to add my pennies worth

I think it’s terrible how university education counts for nothing unless you do certain professions like law and accountancy. I think we are do undervalued in these professions especially teaching where the degree is no longer 4 years its now 3 and pretty much anyone can do it on the job too! It makes me so angry what’s the point of university when you can make tons more money for a load less effort!!

I think it’s terrible how university education counts for nothing unless you do certain professions like law and accountancy

Which is why you have to question the sanity of whoever came up with the idea that 50% (or whatever it was) of people should go to university.

It's not necessarily beneficial unless 50% of jobs require a degree and you then you end up with previously non graduate jobs like admin, call centre etc, turning into graduate jobs, as in they expect you to have a degree, without actually requiring more skills or paying more for the job.

I suspect encouraging more people into university was actually just another way of keeping people off the dole queue, before they went onto the next bright idea about encouraging everyone to be self employed instead.

I wonder what they'll think of next, now that has backfired with tax credits for 'self employed' people who earn next to nothing doing nails and hair for their mates or scratching round car boot sales looking for crap to sell on ebay for a few pence profit, but also a gateway to working and child tax credits.

Salaries are funny things. I work in law, I have to be qualified to do my job and give legal advice in this particular area of law. I have worked hard to get to my position as a senior. My DP works at the same company but in IT. He earns 6K more than me. My brother works in a call centre. He earns 10k more than me. Bizarre.

@OhTheRoses - what's this overtime of which you speak? In 10 years in the NHS I never, and my colleagues never, got paid for the time we stayed during an emergency/waiting for a colleague to be able to relieve us etc. With the greatest respect, you're taking nonsense. The NHS don't pay overtime, and don't (or didn't, where I've worked) honour that time in lieu either. It doesn't get to 8:30pm on the nose and a nurse goes "Sorry you're having a cardiac arrest but my shift is finished bye" and walks off. Ridiculous.

Oh the roses, admittedly I get paid for any overtime. It's not an increased rate it's my usual hourly rate and when it occurs it isn't optional it's because there is something I cannot leave.

This isn't the same for all though, and many nhs nurses don't get the hours worked in pay or toil.

Sometimes it can be a case of until the next shift comes and takes over you can't sit and document/do incident forms etc so you start them after handover. Again this isn't an option, it has to be done before we leave the ward.

When this happens to me for example once last week it's the difference in me seeing my son before he goes to bed or not. I don't begrudge it though because I love my job, and wouldn't want to do anything else. There are many things I could have done lots would have probably led to me earning much more money or having a better work life balance. I think my patients would say they're happy I chose to be a nurse though, and with nurses and midwives in short supply we need to encourage people into the career not away from it as quite simply you need us!

Also you give a couple of examples of crappy nurses or a hv. There are roughly 300,000 registered nurses in the UK currently, would assume all doctors can't answer questions because one couldn't help you, or that all teachers are useless because there's one at your child's school you're not a fan of?

OK so sometimes or often a nurse does 13 hours on a 12 hour shift. If that nurse isn't relieved why is that? Because someone is late/doesn't turn up? Why - what is the remedy.

Are you saying that if they do an additional shift that week they don't get paid for it? You do realise that a lawyer or accountant on a salary might get an additional case or audit - they might have to put in 12 extra hours. It is expected the work is completed. There is no additional money.

Lawyers/accountants/doctors are professionally qualified. Nurses/teachers are vocationally qualified and the entry requirements are miles apart. Why is it a surprise they earn less?

sounds like the job for the gas engineer is self employed so if hes doing nothing he wont get paid for it no its not fair the gender pay gap thats the governement for you also anybody can go to university for years but still not get a job in the feild they trained in so end up taking a job doing something else well bills etc have to be paid my daughter and future son in law are at uni but they realise there not going to fall into a job they studied in so will take a stop gap job. until a job comes along.

@OhTheRoses - if you're asked to do an extra shift to cover for sickness or whatever, then yes you're paid for it. But that's not what we're talking about. You seem to think nurses or midwives can just walk off a ward and we're only talking an hour here or there - it adds up, it delays you getting home to rest and eat, and when you're back in the next day that extra hour is a lot.

Why do they have to stay? Legal requirement of documentation to complete, it's not possible to provide hands on care and document at the exact moment, as well as safeguarding, liaising with other professionals, as well as handling any emergencies which occur. As I said before I worked as a midwife, and have had emergencies (such as a postpartum haemorrage) take place as I'm waiting to handing over - I can't exactly leave, I know her, her history and of course want to ensure she is okay, and have a duty of care to her. No-one is saying we/I should be paid millions, but its disrespectful to claim we 'only' work 37.5 hours and get overtime beyond that when you're incorrect!

And nurses/midwives/teachers have had to do a degree, as well as learn the skills necessary for the job. All the jobs you've listed there are important, they provide different functions to people. Why don't you respect nurses and the work and training the role involves?

It’s a simple fact of life about supply & demand.

It’s why Gareth Bale gets £600k per week at Real Madrid & Tom Cruise gets £20M per movie and fair play to them.

But could she? He got an apprenticeship, but would a woman have the same chance? Whatever the law, there is still a lot of predjudice in traditionally male industries. And even if she'd got a place, would she be able to survive the workplace abuse?

You are right of course that we all make our choices in life. But fairness and justice don't seem to have much to do with it. If I needed a gas fitter or a nurse, I know which I'd value more - much, much more.

One of the main drivers of the difference in pay is probably the fact that nursing is a predominantly female profession and gas fitting a male job. But I expect most people still see that as fair.

To add to that, why do nurses need degrees when they never used to? Why not do medicine instead of nursing?

Because they are completely different jobs with separate skills sets maybe?

I’ve e googled.
Trainee Gas Engineer salaries - salaries reported £20,000/yr
Salaries for Gas Engineers vary with an engineer's level of experience. While the average salary is £36,679, engineers can expect this salary to increase. As a general guide, Gas Engineers can expect to make the following: Starter: £32,500 per annum.19 Mar 2018

In the old days, I think the SRN training was considered to be equivalent to a degree.

@JellyBaby666 I give up, we are absolutely wasting our time. She isn't going to change her low opinion of nurses.

Roses- feel free to call your accountant next time you're unwell.

@JellyBaby666 With the greatest respect, you're taking nonsense.

As a nurse until recently, plus mother, sister and aunt of nurses, sorry but it is you that’s talking absolute nonsense.
If there was a shortage of staff and I took on an extra shift (or a double shift) this took me over 37.5 hours. I can assure you that this was paid at overtime rates.
My daughter regularly has to stay on as she is a theatre nurse and obviously can’t leave until an operation ends. This extra time is put down as time owed and she takes it back when it suits her and the department.

@OhTheRoses I agree with you over the point that nurses aren’t that
badly paid. As a Band 5 nurse I felt that with unsociable hours payments I earned a reasonable salary. Sickness/maternity pay is also very generous, compared to many of those employed in the private sector.
However I take exception to your comment ”The response wasn't professional though and I think it sums up the level of expertise which is not professionall, evidence based expertise which obviously merits more money. Please do not judge all nurses by some obviously poor examples of the profession! I believe that I always used professional, evidence based expertise. I’m not saying I knew everything, but when necessary I accessed NICE guidelines, as well as other sources, to ensure my patients received the best care available. Nursing in a Community Hospital, I did not have the advantage of having a doctor on the premises. Only way of accessing a doctor was via OOH, and as they were 45 minutes away and didn’t know the patient, they had to rely on the nurses judgment and expertise to decide what action was required. Often this doctor would ask the nurse about what treatment/medication she considered the patient warranted.

I don’t get paid overtime. I guess if I ended up doing a whole additional shift I would. However staying on say an hour or so, to finish a task or paperwork (which is a common enough occurrence) is never paid.

I trained not to long ago and in the vast majority of my placements was included in the numbers and expected to work as a HCA or nurse (placement dependant!). I work in MH and was often requested to take part in restraint which I was not trained in, simply because I was part of the numbers (I didn’t oblige of course). This was the same story for all of the friends I trained with. We were fortunate enough to receive a £380 a month bursary for the 37.5 hours a week we worked...

That’s £380 a month more than you’d get now. Student nurse exploitation is appalling, no wonder there are 40,000 nursing vacancies and it’s only going to get worse.

It's never just as simple as 'supply and demand'. Jobs have got a psychological component - if I do this, how will I be treated/what will my status be/what will be my next step - as well as formal pay. It's about the whole package. There's plenty of demand for teachers, nurses and care staff bit the whole package is unattractive to many. I mean, there is a huge shortage of teachers in my subject but when you go to an interview, they often don't treat you very well and generally don't share key information that will enable you to know if the job is viable for you (such as actual work times, extra curricular requirements involving eveningd and weekends etc). You could probably solve these problems by treating the labour a bit more respectfully. There is certainly a gendered component to this.