To think everyone saying Shamima Begum should rot in Syria have completely overlooked the fact that she is pregnant

[StepAwayFromGoogle]

Just that really. She did a terrible thing going to Syria to marry an ISIS fighter. But she was only 15 and probably incredibly naive. She has already lost two children, one as a complication of malnutrition. And the child she is pregnant with has done nothing wrong. Surely we shouldn't leave him or her there to die too?

The vicious circle needs to be broken

Completely agree. What is happening to make people like SB believe what they are being told? I'm presuming it stems from dissatisfaction with their lives in some way. Poverty, racial or another type of abuse, issues at school, even just general teenageness. There's obviously something going on to make them search this out in the first place.

I’m saying we should be monitoring all children to see if they’re slipping through the cracks. If I actually had the answer to this problem, I would state it. I seem to be pissing you off, but it doesn’t change the facts that at the point she left the UK she was actually a child. I’m simply trying to discuss that

Your not pissing me off, I'm just asking for your gaurded opinion.

Some people here seem quite angry about the idea that there may have been a reason why she was radicalised but I do think it’s a relevant discussion

The why is the sticking point, but I will take a large bet on you putting the majority of blame on Western nations intervention, IDpol oppression stacks and if in doubt domestic political allegiancies before you look at the elephant in the room.

It looks more like I've got under your skin to get honest, it's not me making woolly unicorn comments

Rosemary - I think that is where the radicalisation comes in. She is so indoctrinated, she believes she is/was right. Which is why the authorities wont help her and why, should she manage to get here, she would be imprisoned. She is an extremist.

1. She is presumably not currently free to say what she really feels where she is-her her out and see wht she says when she’s in a place of safety
2. it would be interesting to know what the attitudes would be towards her if she was white.

The arguments from the girls' lawyer at the time were totally disingenuous. It would make sense to at least question unaccompanied Muslim-heritage girls flying to warzones on tickets bought for cash. The very same lawyers who complained about this not happening would make a deafening noise about racial profiling the very first time it did. Indeed, it would make sense to question unaccompanied girls of any ethnic background flying to warzones, but there won't be many from Guildford, will there?

2) it would be interesting to know what the attitudes would be towards her if she was white.

Oh, ffs, EXACTLY THE SAME!!!! People are harsh about her because of what she's done/her beliefs/attitudes towards Britain and the West, not because of her race.

Her child doesn’t deserve to die of malnutrition.

She should be made to face justice in this country.

She could be deradicalised and become an incredibly valuble source of information to this country.

We are responsible for our citizens. We can’t just inflict them on the rest of the world because we don’t want to deal with our own terrorists.

She was 15 years old when she left: clearly very much a minor, and she had to have been groomed, probably over quite some period of time (ie from an even younger and more impressionable age). It's not a decision anyone would otherwise make and her age at the time makes her much less culpable than if she'd been an adult. On the other hand or beggars belief for me that anyone of any age could willingly be part of an organisation which proudly committed any number of atrocities. She would have been well aware of what was happening given all the publicity.

And now she is an adult and should be treated as such within the law, especially given her complete lack of remorse. What complicates it for me is her pregnancy; why should her child suffer because of her actions? For that reason I think it's reasonable to say that she may return (as she is still legally a British citizen) but not if this risks the lives of British personnel. If she does come back she will face the consequences in court; there must surely be a strong case against her? Better that than leaving her child to its fate.

it would be interesting to know what the attitudes would be towards her if she was white.

www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/29/german-isis-woman-let-slave-girl-5-die-of-thirst-say-prosecutors

2) it would be interesting to know what the attitudes would be towards her if she was white.

The Nazi’s were white, they should have all died and been shown no mercy. ISIS is no different

I’m probably making woolly unicorn comments because I’m not bright enough for this discussion.

If I’m not pissing you off, that’s my misunderstanding of your post. You’re not ‘under my skin’; I’m not even slightly wound up. Just trying to have a conversation about the outcomes for now adult uk citizens who left us as children and became terrorists.

Western nations intervention, IDpol oppression stacks and if in doubt domestic political allegiancies before you look at the elephant in the room.
No. I don’t know what causes radicalisation. I actually think it’s more likely loneliness, easy to target, teenagers with grand plans who want to believe in something, teenagers that hate our society.... but I don’t actually know. This is coming from a knowledge of teens and I have flagged some up according to Prevent that fit the mold above and who have started posting worrying things online.

Why do you think teenagers have left the UK to join IS?

People arguing about her unborn child. There are THOUSANDS of unborn children who are suffering as a direct result of ISIS.

Where is the outrage and support for them?

The Nazi’s were white, they should have all died

In 1945, the Nazi Party had 8.5 million members. How long were you planning to run their former extermination camps in order to kill them all? Or was it, perhaps, slightly more complicated than "all" of them?

IS didn't care about the women and children used as sexual slaves. So no, I don't care about either her or her baby and she chose to go there, she was not abducted. Stop trying to virtue signal OP, you sound like an ignorant twat!

Let her back and we hand ISIS an open door to other young vulnerable British girls.

If we let her back, there will be others. Yes she was groomed. Its shit. But ISIS will just groom more and more young girls. Get them to where ever they need them to be. Use them for sex and reproduction then get them to beg thier way back into the UK with their ISIS ideology and ISIS idealised kids.

No way should they be let back.
They will be though. The UK is such a soft touch. Never takes the hard line because we have to do "the right thing" even when it means opening our doors to terrorists to kill us and our kids.

ISIS in Syria may be under defeat but it's not going away.

But ISIS will just groom more and more young girls.

I am indifferent to her fate, and I think allowing her back into the country would be a serious mistake. However, ISIS no longer exists as a purported "state" and its land, and its members, have virtually ceased to exist. The ideology is more robust and dangerous, and it will continue to present a risk to the west, but it is no longer able to present itself to potential converts as a viable, functioning "state". It isn't what it was a few years ago, and the risks are very different. It still presents a significant risk, but 15 year olds are not going to be travelling "there" because there is no "there" to go to any more.

I personally believe this is political terrorism, and likely planned.

From a critical stance you are condemning an innocent full term baby to certain death by saying no.

But agree that this is no different to every other pregnant woman in Syria, a situation the woman in question supported and therefore help create.

It shocks me that there are people who will defend members of ISIS, or even Nazis. If she comes back, she will contribute to the cycle of radicalisation and hate.

In today’s world it seems we have learnt absolutely nothing from history.

I don't think we can let her back; it's too much of a risk, and she can serve as an example 'pour encourager les autres' not to follow in her footsteps.

Talking about this with ds today (now 23, but was cynical at 15), he couldn't imagine how anyone would think at 15 this was a clever thing to do, and that to find this sort of stuff online means you would have had to go looking for it.

I get emails from M&S, Boden, Fatface, Brakeburn, Amazon, Blackwells and Lakeland. I don't get recruitment videos from ISIL.

In today’s world it seems we have learnt absolutely nothing from history.

Says the poster who thinks a proportionate and sensible action in June 1945 would have been to execute eight and a half million Germans, most of them civilians.

Do we therefore believe that because everyone knows about ‘Rotherham’ and how those evil bastard’s do things - all
teenagers who fall victim to the same grooming and are abused in the same way from now on are no longer victims because ‘they knew.’ She was groomed - the old fashioned word for this process is brainwashed - so no, she didn’t ‘know what ISI was doing was wrong’ becayse she saw it in the tv because she’s been slowly indoctrinated, over years probably, to believe that it is right or at least justified. The girls groomed in Rotherham actively ran away from help; from the police & SS - they were made to believe they were the enemy. They lied and ran back to their abusers time after time. This is what grooming does. It ‘normalizes’ things that are unbelievable to the rest of us. You may not understand it but please don’t minimise it. It’s completely psychological breaking someone and then building a warped reality instead, which is utterly believable to that person.
She’s a British citizen. She must be allowed to return but she must then be charged with whatever crimes she’s committed and face the consequences but also be de-programmed because that’s what has happened.

People are acting like if she doesn’t come back here she will cease existing. But she’s an agent for isis while she’s in Syria. She’s a problem inflicting pain and damage on a desperate and war torn nation. She should face justice here and, if appropriate, face imprisonment here. She doesn’t stop being a problem just because she’s not on our doorstep.

Says the poster who thinks a proportionate and sensible action in June 1945 would have been to execute eight and a half million Germans, most of them civilians.

I was referring to Nazi servicemen, their leaders and government. But sure - jump to stupid conclusions.

Our UK prisons are full of convicted criminals who were groomed into their criminal deeds - groomed by criminal or ineffective parenting, peer gangsters, extended family and friends or being born into a criminal environment with lack of opportunity or education.
However - they committed their crimes, and many will continue to do so even when released because they don't make good adult choices and our ability to rehabilitate many criminals is not renounced for its success.
We are safer with such criminals behind bars.
This young woman presents a real threat to our way of life, has broken the law and boasts she has 'no regrets' about her decision to join ISIS - no regrets despite the death of her two children and unfazed by beheaded bodies beside her!
She wants to live in a state governed by Sharia Law - let her go to one. Are they rushing to claim her?
There are many more cases deserving of our care and tax benefits than this hardened criminal.

She’s a problem inflicting pain and damage on a desperate and war torn nation

She's a 19 year old, without ready access to weapons, in a country in which her ideology is both despised and very much visible. Sure, she's a pretty appalling human being, but the idea that she presents an existential threat to Syria is inflating her importance to match her own egotism. She's much more of risk to the UK, where there is a ready audience for her vile ideas and where she would get support from like-minded people and her family, than she is in Syria, where she's just a loser in a refugee camp.