To think everyone saying Shamima Begum should rot in Syria have completely overlooked the fact that she is pregnant

[StepAwayFromGoogle]

Just that really. She did a terrible thing going to Syria to marry an ISIS fighter. But she was only 15 and probably incredibly naive. She has already lost two children, one as a complication of malnutrition. And the child she is pregnant with has done nothing wrong. Surely we shouldn't leave him or her there to die too?

When she said she doesn't regret anything we need to remember ahe is in s foreign country in a scary place, watched by we do not know who! She will tell the truth, I think, once safely home.

She is British and should face british justice for her crime.

She could help the UK government to stop other stupid teens going abroad.

She has truly made a massive mistake but was 25, a child, when she made it.

Brining her home is the humain, reasonable, legal sensible thing yo do.

She is worth far more to the UK government in the UK than stranded in Syria.

Common sense is needed not angry hot heads.

15 a child.

One died from malnutrition, she says and yet there she is looking like a poster girl for Hollands' Pies!

She is a liar, we begin by not believing a word that falls from her mouth.

It is almost as if she has picked her story from the Ladybird manual entitled, 'How to Persuade Western Fools to have Sympathy For Female ISIS Warriors'.

suff

One might almost think you were enjoying the torch waving, from the tone of your posts.

It is utterly bizarre this idea that thinking any discussion more sophisticated than “let her rot” is sympathising with her. For our own protection we need to understand how this happened and how we can stop it happening again.

@ SmileEachDay

You said

"I think the aims of protecting innocents and treating victims of extremist grooming with compassion are not mutually exclusive - in Begum’s case, bring her home, protect her baby and put her through the uk legal system, alongside intensive deradicalisation therapy."

Firstly while I try to be understanding and compassionate about crimes people commit when under the influence of manipulative criminals and cults I really struggle with Begum, simply because of her cold, psychopathic / sociopathic narrative.

She seems unable to put herself into the shoes of others. This is why she has generated so much rage and disgust from British citizen, myself included.

She asks for sympathy for her situation and yet did nothing to stop atrocities against innocent civilians including Yazidi women and children who were violated, raped, sold as if they were livestock by monsters.

The point I was trying to make in my pervious post was not so much to invite people to feel sympathy or compassion for Begum. I think that many people might feel differently towards her had she expressed remorse and guilt over what she has done.

It is extremely common for people to become involved in cults and to not realise jut how abusive they are until many years later. Very often people who leave cults feel extremely guilty about things they did while cult members. Compartmentalising crimes and abuses that a cult member commits while under the influence of a cult, effectively just putting it into a folder in the mind marked "do not open", is a common unconscious survival strategy that actually prevents people from leaving cults.

Cults routinely hide their criminal and barbaric elements from followers until they are so deeply involved that they cannot leave, often because by that time they are complicit in criminal enterprises.

In the case of Begum, it is not as though she was recruited via daesh promotional films showing happy families in Syria or "warriors" stroking kittens. She undoubtably saw such videos but was seduced and recruited by being shown videos of torture, murders, beheadings etc.

In a comparison with CSE Begum is like the groomed teen who acts as an enthusiastic recruiter for her oppressors and who has a relatively psychopathic lack of concern for victims.

This makes her incredibly dangerous.

She does not appear to have been involved in crime or to have suffered abuse or exploitation prior to her radicalisation. She does not appear to have been in the sway of a redemption narrative.

She is someone who apparently enjoyed the excitement of belonging to a group of violent, murdering rapists, paedophiles and traffickers.

The horrific, disgusting, evil elements were all on display when she was recruited.

My thoughts on this, which are provisional, are that she would be a valuable person to detain and contain to study and to understand how she functions mentally.

It seems to me that a lot of the most violent, sadistic, unapologetic daesh recruits are motivated by narcissism. Many of them wanted to be rappers / rock stars and to be held in the minds of thousands of people, either as a great warrior or a feared terrorist. The recruiters understand this well, it is reflected in some of their recruitment material.

My concern re Begum is that if she is ever able to travel outside of Syria that her narcissism and sense of entitlement and resentment will propel her into an even more powerful poster girl for terrorist groups.

But it's not the torch she will have waved when setting fire to people is it?

And she may very well have done that as videos of people being burnt slowly to death were what turned on her on enough to go over there in the first place.

You may not like my tone-I don't care!

because of her cold, psychopathic / sociopathic narrative

I think it’s very early days. She’s been back in the public eye for a week or so - during which time she’s given birth. She could be psychopathic, she could be a brainwashed victim, she could be a panicking teen who doesn’t know what to do. We don’t know.

I’d say she was far more dangerous sliding out of the public eye and going who knows where.

Plus, if she is a danger, it is up to the uk authorities to deal with it.

@SmileEachDay

agree

especially this
"I’d say she was far more dangerous sliding out of the public eye and going who knows where. "

I’d say she was far more dangerous sliding out of the public eye and going who knows where.

The UK authorities have already failed once by letting her slip when she was 15 and now instead of correcting that they are trying to absolve themselves of their responsibility to examine their failings and deal with a situation they created by mishandling the whole affair. She would have been a manageable 15 year old then but who knows what networks she has access to now after 4 years of meeting other jihadists from all over the world. They don't want to contain that or exploit it to benefit their fight against terrorism.

You’re absolutely right, @hodathunkit, your last post makes more sense than the rest of the thread put together.

If we wish to prevent other young women ending up in this position showing them that you end up in. Syrian refugee camp and that’s where you stay might be a pretty good deterrent.

There’s a lot about this that feels “off”. How incredibly convenient that a Times reporter happens to find Begum in a refugee camp just days before she gives birth. She purports to have lost a child through malnutrition yet somehow has every appearance of being well nourished. There’s something very unnatural about her new baby, she doesn’t cradle it or even look at it. I can’t help but feel this is a cynical Isis tactic.

I think that we are in danger of the collective rage towards Begum, a rage that I feel myself and that is completely understandable, risks turning into a wish to "purge" evil from our lands, when to do this might endanger innocents.

This wish to purge badness is a common narrative in cults and terrorist networks.

I don't know whether anyone here has seen the terrorist recruitment video "Dirty Kuffar"? A very catchy dancehall "riddim (Diwali riddim) endorsing violent Jihad and using what hypnotists call a "yes set" to encourage people to "Bun dem i a fy-ahh" the "dem" being people considered enemies of Islamists.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_Kuffar

This wish to purge with fire, to cleanse of dirt, is a very primitive human instinct and can be seen in witchcraft accusation and mob violence generally.

I feel concerned that the wish to purge the UK of Begum is an emotional rather than a rational response. I appreciate that nobody is suggesting burning her in a big fire, however I wonder whether the fact that the collective will to expel her might be more to do with a primitive need to feel clean and thus safe rather than a considered and nuanced response to a difficult problem?

I can understand the emotional response. I feel it too. I just doubt that acting upon an emotional response is in our country's best interests.

“I think that we are in danger of the collective rage towards Begum, a rage that I feel myself and that is completely understandable, risks turning into a wish to "purge" evil from our lands, when to do this might endanger innocents.“

Absolutely. And the mindset that anything except explosive rage is sympathy is very dangerous too. We need to talk about the issue of radicalisation coldly and intellectually, not emotionally.

Incidentally, presumably Begum is not her last name. Do we know what it is?

'When she said she doesn't regret anything we need to remember ahe is in s foreign country in a scary place, watched by we do not know who! She will tell the truth, I think, once safely home.'

Yes I'm surprised people keep saying she has shown no remorse. She is in Syria surrounded by no doubt Isis supporters she of course will have to watch what she says.

I have little sympathy for her, but we either retract the citizenship of all those that have been to Syria or we don't. Haven't hundreds returned already?

Someone posted this link on another thread and I think anyone pondering this case and forming opinions should read it. It’s written by the journalist who interviewed her. It’s behind a paywall but not sure if you can read one article for free? Don’t forget she’s surrounded in the camp still by Isis supporters.

He writes

I certainly did not loathe Shamima Begum. In essence, she was a classic victim turned potential perpetrator: the groomed minor sat before me as a radicalised young adult. Despite her predictable arrogance and didactic manner, her aura was primarily that of a confused and vulnerable young London woman. Most of the time we were together it seemed too that despite her outward composure she was in a state of grief and shock. Alone, frightened, she wanted someone to speak to. All I had to do was listen, coax and engage.

She spoke repeatedly and in anger over her husband’s six-and-a-half month imprisonment and torture in an Isis jail over spying charges. She talked also of the hypocrisy, cruelty and oppression within the organisation.

“I am scared,” she said. “I am so confused. I’m really naive.

“There’s so much oppression and corruption going on [within Isis] that I don’t really think they deserve the victory. Dawlah [Islamic State] has actually killed Muslims. People that have fought for them, they’ve killed. And for what? So you say you kill the non-Muslims and take care of the Muslims, but they don’t do that.”

“My husband said that while he was in [an Isis] prison there were men that had been tortured so badly that they were like ‘I’m just going to admit to being a spy so they can kill me’.”

These are extraordinary remarks for an Isis devotee to make, and suggest that within the mental confines placed upon her by the so-called caliphate there lurks an independently minded young woman who with the right help may be able to emerge from her radicalised state.

Indeed, Ms Begum is likely to be one of the most suitable adult candidates for rehabilitation of the scores of British adults who joined Isis and are believed to be in custody in northern Syria.

There’s been some selective reporting going on and a knee jerk reaction from SJ based on that alone. What an idiot.

We have to start somewhere and it begins with her or are you suggesting that because it hasn't happened before, it should never happen?

WE have enough radicals in our midst without allowing this one home. We cannot in teh Uk cure the problems of the world and don't have the money to do that. It is hard enough to feed our own citizens rather than pay for her lawyers, her repatriation, her trial etc. We have to pick our battles. Withdrawing citzenship from those with the alternative country - Bangladesh here - seems the right way to go.

I agree we should be consistent although the law neve rhas to be. Time after time people say XYZ wasn't prosecutred for this thing i did so I should go off scott free. Sorry - the law does not work like that.

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/decoding-shamima-begum-why-we-shouldnt-be-surprised-by-her-lack-of-remorse-mbgxdbtzf

'We have to start somewhere and it begins with her or are you suggesting that because it hasn't happened before, it should never happen?'

It would seem rather a late response. Surely the home office should be consistent. They either pose a threat and none should be allowed to return, or the are allowed to return and then imprisoned or monitored depending on their crime. To single out one 19yr old female doesn't seem the most logical of policy.

@Tinyteatime

Thank you for that, interesting and important piece.

Where do you live Xenia where the law doesn't have to be consistent? Does it depend on what mood everyone is in on the day?

bertrand you are deluded if you think she's going to be brought back here to communicate with the government and explain all the ins and outs of her alleged grooming....and then engage with them to come up with plans to reduce it!!!!

Why can't she stay where she is?? They aren't saying they want her out are they?

The Guardian has said compassion should be shown to Begum but I think that’s more a case of my enemy’s enemy is my friend.
I don’t think the Guardian or indeed some posters on here would be at all sympathetic if she were a right wing extremist who supported racisl cleansing. They’d be baying for her blood.