Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think everyone saying Shamima Begum should rot in Syria have completely overlooked the fact that she is pregnant

999 replies

StepAwayFromGoogle · 14/02/2019 13:39

Just that really. She did a terrible thing going to Syria to marry an ISIS fighter. But she was only 15 and probably incredibly naive. She has already lost two children, one as a complication of malnutrition. And the child she is pregnant with has done nothing wrong. Surely we shouldn't leave him or her there to die too?

OP posts:
time4chocolate · 21/02/2019 09:03

Of course he is right not to let her back in and I am struggling to see how anyone could think otherwise tbh. Holland and Bangladesh don't want her either and I don't blame them. She is now seeing the consequences of her actions. She doesn't seem to be too bothered about where she ends up just as long as it's somewhere in Europe. Which is odd given that she had zero respect for western values and the western way of life, she gave that up to side and support heinous people who despise the west but she now wants to return whilst still supporting her jihadi husband and showing no remorse - she is a dangerous woman to have walking amongst our children.

On a side note who on earth is that person who accompanies her in these interviews and is seen sometimes holding the baby, they are dressed completely head to toe in black even wearing black gloves, is it a man or a woman? It's all very suspicious and I'm sure there is more going on here.

Juells · 21/02/2019 09:04

People are normally tried in the country where they are alleged to have committed a crime. They're not shipped to their home country for a trial.

JRMisOdious · 21/02/2019 09:05

“Now he looks like a tool because stripping her of her nationality breaks international law.”

Or it’s achieved precisely the desired result: tied it up in court for years until it becomes the next Government’s problem.

suffragetteorsuffragist · 21/02/2019 09:06

"vulnerable teen! Grin Grin Grin

Do you think that Bangladesh look like twats?

No country wants this fucker and now we don't have to have her either!

She is crawling around looking for somewhere because ISIS lost and anyone who thinks she would be doing the same if they were riding high needs to reassess.

The warrior herself has the right idea. She has said things cut both ways and she is right-they do and this is an example of it.

I think the Home Secretary will have taken legal advice and discovered that we don't have to have this woman, a woman aroused by the most filthy images, alongside us.

I don't think any country has urged us to take this warrior back, so who are we looking like twats to? Do you mean her family, a few bleeding hearts and her lawyers? Who cares about their opinion.

Most of the public don't and neither do the international community. It's going to be like pass the parcel of shit and we have a HS, who is doing his best to ensure we don't end up with it!

hoodathunkit · 21/02/2019 09:10

I was trafficked as a teenager and I felt incensed listening to this woman compare herself to trafficking survivors.

It is not that I fail to appreciate the coercion and brainwashing that affects victims of cults and of trafficking networks. I appreciate that some people are groomed, alienate from their families and then exploited in various ways including sex trafficking. This is a subject about which I am very familiar.

I understand about the effects of physical and emotional trauma and how victims can become subservient to perpetrators and even to love and idealise them via a process known as the Stockholm syndrome.

This young woman presents as an entitled perpetrator rather than a victim or survivor to me. She appears unconcerned about the fate of the Yazidi women and children who have been raped, sold, trafficked, tortured and murdered by the scum she considers to be warriors.

If the UK is to offer a safe refuge for victims of daesh atrocities I would rather we help the Yazidi women and girls the advantages of UK citizenship than this stupid, entitled young woman.

Having said that, I think it is important to put my understandable emotional responses of anger and disgust to one side and to consider all the possible outcomes in this case.

It seems that there is a chance that she could end up in the Netherlands as her daesh husband was Dutch. It seems to me that there is a possibility that she could present a more significant danger to UK citizens from the Netherlands than she would do if she ended up in the UK.

While I do not want her here in the UK with her current entitled attitude I would very much like to spend some time with her enlightening her about the effects of rape and human trafficking.

Ideally I would like to see her educated to the extent that she could become an asset to the UK, however this would I believe involve some very intensive reeducation while she was completely separated from the monsters who influenced her as a teen.

This would seem to be to be an open ended process and determining the extent to which she was still a danger is a difficult and complex one.

I do not support the death penalty and it seems to me that this foolish young woman remains sufficiently brainwashed and deluded to serve as a figurehead for others who share her beliefs.

Personally I feel it would be better to contain her and to isolate her from others who she might influence than to simply remove her citizenship, the latter option possibly leading to her becoming a very serious threat to the UK if she is able to gain supporters in real life or via virtual means.

I am no expert on terrorism and am not certain about this, but just sharing some concerns.

As a survivor of sex trafficking I would very much welcome the opportunity to be part of her "reeducation".

SmileEachDay · 21/02/2019 09:18

suff

The grooming of young people by extremist groups has much in common with the grooming that takes place with CSE. The police and other agency response in terms of prevention/identification is very similar.

She was failed by her parents and agencies within the UK as a child. That’s on the UK. She absolutely should be brought back here to face justice as appropriate.

If she is a danger, how is it ethical for the UK to expect other countries - Syria, Bangladesh- to deal with that?

If she is a groomed child who has been pregnant for 3 out the 4 years she has been away (in a country where women can’t be out in public without a male chaperone) who has 2 dead children and a small baby, who has been utterly brainwashed by extremists then that is on the UK to deal with that.

Torch waving is unhelpful.

Go on though. Call me a terrorist sympathiser.

SmileEachDay · 21/02/2019 09:21

X post with your thoughtful and consideredpost Hood

suffragetteorsuffragist · 21/02/2019 09:22

@Smile

@Smile

Sadly, your post is bollocks!
Happily, it is an example of minority think.

I expect and hope that no country other than Syria has to deal with her. I applaud Bangladesh.

She is in Syria. She is a war criminal. They will deal with her as they should according to their lights and that's that.

Not many will shed a tear. Some will, nosily I'm sure but even if the noise is overpowering, it will still be only made by a few.

SmileEachDay · 21/02/2019 09:25

Sadly, your post is bollocks!
Happily, it is an example of minority think

Oh? You don’t think that preventing children being groomed by extremist groups is a thing?

CameliaCamelia · 21/02/2019 09:31

How do you prevent this when kids these days have unlimited WiFi access?

How?

suffragetteorsuffragist · 21/02/2019 09:32

Not in the way you mean, no!

You are using this as an attempt to gain sympathy for a woman who loved and was turned on by images of torture and sexual violence so much she crossed the world to join in.

TO JOIN IN.

Not content to support them from afar, no, she wanted a go at it herself.

I see Holland don't want her now either, so it seems no-one apart from a few powerless wet willies and those who have a vested interest, are swallowing this offensive comparison. Luckily, their opinions-although loudly expressed-are being ignored by those who do have power.

She is not a helpless victim. She enjoyed violent images of torture and sexual violence so much SHE RAN AWAY TO HAVE A GO AT IT HERSELF.

Defending her and comparing her to rape victims is beyond belief but then there will always be those prepared to try and defend the indefensible.

SmileEachDay · 21/02/2019 09:36

Not in the way you mean, no!

Oh? How are young people groomed by extremists then?

brassbrass · 21/02/2019 09:39

By the way, baying for her blood doesn't solve any of our real problems but it's a good outlet for our frustration.

The IS sympathisers still live amongst us. The HS has let a lot of them back in but failed to mention how he's dealing with them or whether he still has visibility of them. The police don't know how to deal with or intercept kids who are being groomed. Our border security isn't meticulous enough to notice a 15 year old slipping out on her sibling's passport. The status we may once have had on the world stage is being eroded by twatty politicians who don't actually care about the future of this country. None of them are looking far ahead enough just at their own immediate careers.

But so long as we have a hate figure in a stupid teenager its all sorted. Not to mention the excellent timing of SB appearing so close to Brexit.

hoodathunkit · 21/02/2019 09:44

@SmileEachDay

Of course there are many obvious similarities between the grooming of minors for CSE and the grooming of children and vulnerable adults by religious cults and terrorist organisations.

One of the similarities is that victims, children and adults, grow up to become perpetrators.

It is extremely common in cases of sex trafficking for victims to become recruiters for pimps and traffickers. This happens partly because of the Stockholm syndrome and partly because options for leaving a life of slavery and exploitation are extremely limited. Sometime the only option is for the victim to become a perpetrator.

This can possibly most clearly be seen in the example of the "dancing boys" of Afghanistan. These poor kids are often murdered and if they survive to adulthood their only option of living a reasonably comfortable life is to join the network of paedophiles, rapists and murderers who exploited them.

As someone who, as a teenage girl, was groomed into prostitution by a much older male who initially pretended to be by boyfriend but who subsequently blackmailed me, threatened my family and was extremely violent towards me, I appreciate how difficult it can be to think rationally or to see a way out.

I ultimately was able to escape my pimp after my family moved house which was at a time when the pimp was trying to persuade me to recruit new victims for him.

Even though I was traumatised, very mentally and physically unwell and extremely confused I would never, ever have gone down the path of being complicit in the abuse of other victims.

I am not the only woman who has been in this situation. It is actually fairly common for trafficking victims to find the courage to escape when they are being pressurised to recruit more victims.

I think that this is because it is very difficult to reflect upon your personal situation when you are subjected to frequent threats and violence. When a man who had tricked and abused you invited you to trick and abuse another young girl you can identify with her and gain perspective into your own situation. It can make it easier to leave.

Begum was undoubtably tricked, groomed and alienated from her family. She was sucked into a world in which torture, murder, rape etc were considered perfectly acceptable.

The problem is that she still feels that such things re acceptable. That makes her dangerous.

If you ever try to communicate concerns to a person involved in an exploitative, brainwashing cult (whether paramilitary, sexually abusive, whatever) you are very unlikely to make any progress as long as that person in involved in a cultic milieu.

Begum is undoubtably still a dangerous person. She demonstrates a shocking level of complacency about the abuses inflicted upon others. This is all a mundane and unremarkable consequence of being involved in a cult.

The problem is, in my opinion, to determine the best strategy for minimising the danger she presents to not just the UK but to other innocent people all over the world.

This is a much more important issue than anything to do with her human rights and entitlements.

I do not wish her to "rot in hell" any more than I wish for followers of any other abusive cult to suffer.

This is a complex and nuanced issue and the safety of innocent people should be our most urgent priority.

Xenia · 21/02/2019 09:45

It is not an easy issue as she went there to breed not to fight. Birth as terrorist act.

I certainly don't wantthe UK to pay a penny of the very hard labour earned tax revenues they have from me and many other full time workers in the UK on this issue. May be she will be tried by the Syrians. May be the Dutch granny will claim the baby.

SmileEachDay · 21/02/2019 09:52

hood

I agree with much of what you say - and I think you are amazing to use your experience in such a considered way.

I think the aims of protecting innocents and treating victims of extremist grooming with compassion are not mutually exclusive - in Begum’s case, bring her home, protect her baby and put her through the uk legal system, alongside intensive deradicalisation therapy.

suffragetteorsuffragist · 21/02/2019 09:52

If that baby is hers, then I'm a Dutch Uncle!

CameliaCamelia · 21/02/2019 09:53

Which baby? I only saw a pile of blankets...

suffragetteorsuffragist · 21/02/2019 09:57

Quite but after those comments were made, the baby's face was shown.

I think orginally it was a bundle of rags-it looked like that and she held it like that- and then, when people tumbled to it, she took a baby from some other poor woman.

After what's she done to innocent Syrian people, forcing another woman to give up her child would be nothing at all to her.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 21/02/2019 10:01

Women ran to basically marry and have babies. That’s it. Some fancies toting guns (like that idiot white woman whi haukwd her child with her to marry her toy boy and they all ended up dead).

The American woman in the same situation (trump says he doesn’t want her back) - married 3 murderers one after the other. They were trying to build an empire and populate it with people like them. We have seen the footage of children being drilled like a little army and footage which appears to show children being egged on to murder. Some were made to be suicide bombers.

Human life has no value to these people as they think that life is just a fart in their existence. Their goal is to go the heaven - and I am still it quite sure where the women go (split eternity between 3 husbands?).

Juells · 21/02/2019 10:02

If that baby is hers, then I'm a Dutch Uncle!

It's very very strange - there's another person trailing beside her holding a silent bundle in every interview I've seen. She never glances at the bundle. The bundle is un-moving. There's no jogging of the bundle, no swaying it around like you'd do naturally with a small new baby. The bundle is just there, like a theatrical prop.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 21/02/2019 10:05

hood excellent post

Flowers
BertrandRussell · 21/02/2019 10:09

“This is a complex and nuanced issue and the safety of innocent people should be our most urgent priority.“
And part of that is trying to understand how radicalisation/grooming happens. And not turning people like Shamima Begum (do we know her last name, by the way?) into recruiting sargents

PinkSparklyPussyCat · 21/02/2019 10:09

If she is a groomed child who has been pregnant for 3 out the 4 years she has been away (in a country where women can’t be out in public without a male chaperone) who has 2 dead children and a small baby, who has been utterly brainwashed by extremists then that is on the UK to deal with that.

Allegedly groomed. Allegedly pregnant. Allegedly has 2 dead children and a small baby.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 21/02/2019 10:12

Did you get any links to your previous threads overnight that i may have missed bertrand?