To think everyone saying Shamima Begum should rot in Syria have completely overlooked the fact that she is pregnant

[StepAwayFromGoogle]

Just that really. She did a terrible thing going to Syria to marry an ISIS fighter. But she was only 15 and probably incredibly naive. She has already lost two children, one as a complication of malnutrition. And the child she is pregnant with has done nothing wrong. Surely we shouldn't leave him or her there to die too?

I think that it's a strategic move, they are losing their stronghold in Syria, they are dispersing to wherever they can to carry out their terrorist lives. Not only that, Britain is at the weakest it has ever been, what with Brexit looming, and so many non EU countries distancing themselves from us because of trade deals etc.
Shameena won't give a fuck if she has to go into prison , she can groom and radicalise from there.

The only real shot anyone has is if every IS fighter, sympathizer, wife and child are killed, never to leave Syria, otherwise I fear that terrorism attacks will spoke throughout the world. Anyone with any risk of being groomed into the IS way of thinking should not be given the chance to commit any of the atrocities that IS have committed on the world thus far.
Luckily I do not have my own way, because no, she would not make it out of Syria alive. Pregnant or not, I don't care. My sympathy lies with the victims of IS, and no, as far as I'm concerned she isn't one of them.

She had choices. She knew what it was. She knew that beheadings were happening. She knew about terrorist attacks, she would have known about women being sex slaves to IS fighters, she knew what she was doing, but even then at 15, if she would have said, "I'm sorry, I was wrong, I need to come home. I miss my family, I miss Britain, I thought it would be xxxxx but was yyyyyy. Please let me come home. It would have been completely different but this girl has had two children, both to die in front of her. A third she's 9 months pregnant with, and she decides that now she wants to come home?

If she had it in her to be any sort of parent she would be wracked with guilt that she lost two children in the war zone she helped create, she would have made an effort to escape earlier into her pregnancy. She would have a different view of life than she is exhibiting.

And don't even get me started on her using the term "refugee camp" no love, you and your terrorist mates don't get to use that term, you aren't victims, it's a wife and children of Isis camp, and if they really wanted to escape IS and that life, you would not surround yourself with people who may still hold them views and their radicalized from birth children.

But no doubt, she will receive help to get home. Britain is far too soft on these tickets, meanwhile we have law abiding but disabled citizens of this country starving to death on UC. How about those funds are redirected to those in need, and not those who left this country to join terrorist organisations?

that the hatred comes first and everything else is retrospective justification. Because of this there's nothing at all the west can do, short of actual self-destruction, which could even begin to mollify them

Exactly. Some people in the West seem to have no sense of self-preservation, they're so intent on being civilised that they'll believe anything, accept any guilt, rather than say "these people are filled with hatred, and are dangerous to the rest of us".

Zoflora You ignore, or perhaps weren't aware, that the UK helps funds the camps in Jordan, and that we take genuine refugees from those camps, as opposed to those travelling to Europe who may well not be refugees, but seeded into the column by Daesh.

Zoflora You ignore, or perhaps weren't aware, that the UK helps funds the camps in Jordan, and that we take genuine refugees from those camps, as opposed to those travelling to Europe who may well not be refugees, but seeded into the column by Daesh.

This. I actually wish more countries would do this. We do need an asylum system, but it’s been brought into absolute disrepute by becoming something exploited by the richest and fittest to get into the West. We need an asylum system which is overhauled to meet the needs of the most vulnerable instead.

Puzzledandpissed off, most "scholarly" pieces would say very different.
Sympathising with Muslims in other parts of the world would come first, then getting more involved in extremist circles, then cementing the in-group, out-group mentality, us versus them, bonding with others over that us versus them mentality....and then genuinely seeing themselves as right and the West as wrong, the same way the West sees them as wrong.
Hatred doesn't come first.

do they really believe that the answer to everything is In shāʾa llāh and therefore there is nothing they can do to help themselves?

I'm not convinced they do, TBH. Granted, as you say, some of them aren't the sharpest tool in the box, but even at the most basic level there surely has to be some personal agency

That said, when confronted with the gullible who'll always agree that they're victims, it's only to be expected they'll try it on

user14818 we'll probably have to agree to disagree, but I honestly think you might be missing some of the nuances here. Sympathy with fellows elsewhere can indeed lead to other things, but it's what's brought about that sympathy which is key - and rather than western influences, that can be the medieval structures of some communities and the backwardness they're forced to live among. Some will compare this with the better aspects of the west and seethe with hatred for their own circumstances, but they can't risk hating their own regimes so will turn it outwards and look for someone else to attack - hence the retrospective justification

I really do want to trace the piece mentioned, since it puts it all so much better than I can. I'm pretty sure the author was some professor allied to the SOAS, but there's just so much about this whole subject online that I'm struggling

Puzzled My db did a three year secondment to one of the Gulf States, and he said it was very much an as God wills it, and 'it is not my fault' culture. He found it frustrating professionally.

@Puzzled...
I agree entirely. The hatred, supremacy and victimhood mentality is taught in this ideology first.

When I lived in Birmingham there was a channel 4 documentary - undercover mosque, filmed in several in the area. The things they were saying were utterly appalling - death to apostates and blasphemers, women shouldnt leave the house, don't be friends with unbelievers, calling for physical jihad to protect brothers and sisters of the umma....the most appalling, revolting, intolerant things about Jews and unbelievers.

The leaders of the community came out and said it was channel 4 being racist / that they were being islamaphobic and the comments were taken out of context - even the police got involved to try to stop it being shown if memory serves correctly.

Channel 4 went to court over this and won - it was exactly as they'd described. If you watch it- it is obvious why people that are in these circles and believe in this can get radicalised into committing terrorist acts. It's nothing to do with our behaviour - that is used retrospectively as a justification - and they will use/twist anything.

Stacey Dooley ('er of Strictly fame) did a brilliant documentary about Luton, her home town. When you see the hatred directed at everyone apart from themselves it's very depressing. Marchers happily chanting "British police burn in hell" because a Muslim woman had been arrested on terrorist charges - IIRC she was the wife of a bomber. I'll see if it's on youtube....

Yes, here's a clip

I'm sure all those marchers would respond very well to being treated nicely and de-radicalised 🙄

I don’t care all that much but I do find the discussions about taking her child away a bit hypocritical.

There are children raised with awful views all over the world. The US has gun-wielding toddlers and countless parents are raising kids to be racist, homophobic, misogynists. This case is a little more clear cut - she’s probably earned all the vitriol and more - but where do we draw the line?

Thanks, Juells, Medusa and Scary - some interesting insights right there

I also remember the C4 "undercover mosque" programme; the channel did indeed win the case, which seemed to me to have been brought mainly on the premise that "you can't say that"

Perhaps, while remaining culturally sensitive and avoiding stereotypes, we should all be careful not to avoid saying things about issues which need to be brought into the light?

Nope.

She made her choice. End off.

The article I saw year's ago was like Carrie in homeland maps. It clearly showed hate preachers ,where they spoke who was present... and the atrocities they went onto commit. IE the slaughter of innocent people.

Her parents laid the groundwork too becoming an extremist by.... being extremist.

Puzzled- you are right. Obviously most people, whatever the religion want to just get on in life. There was also a documentary on Anjem Choudhry's group in which they were being chased off by normal Muslims.

We haven't helped ourselves by turning a blind eye to cultural/religious problems, although I do feel that it is easier to talk about them now than it was.

I work in a secondary school in a working-class Muslim area in the UK. The students are always totally fine when you speak to them about issues. For example, the Asia Bibi case in Pakistan- I heard a lot of "but she didn't even blaspheme anyway." I always make the point "even if she did- should you kill someone just because they said something?" and in every case they thought about it, and agreed that that would be wrong.

Regarding ISIS members- we should keep them out. It wasn't a holiday camp- it was very clear what sort of group they were. AFAIK the group hasn't altered their views on us ie would be delighted to murder our children. Any supporters need to be viewed and treated as the enemy they actually are- especially if they are unrepentant. Imagine being the parent of a Manchester bombing victim and having a known IS member move in next door (and probably given police protection). Imagine how you would feel.

She has a right to return she is a British Citizen and we have to deal with both good and bad citizens gone are the days we shipped them off

She will be an absolute headache for security services, will costs huge amounts of money to monitor

And her child has the right to be safe and get the health care treatment needed

Not a fan of Vox personally but someone posted this article over in the other thread, it raises a few interesting points

voxpoliticalonline.com/2019/02/16/the-facts-have-become-casualties-in-the-war-of-words-over-pregnant-is-teenagers-bid-to-return-to-uk/

The big difference with grooming is that the whole point of grooming is to mentally breakdown someone to get them into horrid situation.

The victim doesn't know that situation until it's too late. if you showed the Rotherham victims first...the life they would be it's highly unlikely they would have been groomed... it's a pretence.

You can't claim that here because it's Very clear and real what they would be involving themselves in . No pretence... nothing hidden...

It's good to hear about your students, medusa, and good again that there's clearly been no indoctrination. I'm reminded, though, of the Trojan Horse thing in Birmingham schools, including one where a group of governors were replaced after Ofsted found that they'd enabled inappropriate teaching (and of course Ofsted were instantly called racist)

I also recall the large group of parents who assembled to object to new governors arriving, and thought "Why?? If the previous folk are complicit in your childrens' minds being poisoned, why wouldn't you want them replaced?"

On the face of it that has nothing to do with Shamima and the current case - or has it? Nobody (I hope) pretends that all parents feel the way those Birmingham ones did, but it remains an example of just how early these attitudes can start

I don't want her back in the UK. There are countless innocent and decent Syrian women in refugee camps who deserve help to get out. Shamima doesn't deserve anything. But, as I understand it, she is being held by the Kurds, not the Syrians. They don't want people like her as she is dangerous. No-one wants her but as she is British, under the law, she is allowed back whether we want her or not. I hope she is found guilty of something terrorist related and locked up for a very long time.

I'm betting that she will be housed by the council before you can say Isis.

I completely agree @puzzledandpissedoff that the idea she’ll feel grateful for the UK being civilised towards her and her baby is optimistic at best, but just because she’s a shithead doesn’t means she isn’t entitled to the same rights as any other British citizen. That’s why they are human rights not Nice Person Only rights.

Puzzledandpissed off, i'm sure you are missing plenty yourself. Racism against Muslims also helps to breed this. Islamophobia, helps to breed this. Sometimes the Islamophobia occurs as a result of terrorist attacks in the first place but it can push people towards ISIS ideology when they never would have been drawn to it before.

I'm not doubting that scholar made some good points but go onto google scholar and look at proper journal experts and look at what other scholars and experts say.

Misunderstanding the reasons why people turn to extremism is not going to help solve the problem!

• Journal articles

Did you know that the Spanish Inquisition happened because so many Catholics involved in it felt powerless, and suffered bigotry? Likewise, the attacks against the Dalit in India. Racism against blacks in the American South? That was because the whites were so discriminated against. Oh I could give thousands of examples....

Or I could say that it's about power and control, and everything else is bullshit.