To think a Marxist society would be an improvement

[Downtroddenhousingass]

Lots of people are so anti corbyn but there are many forms of Marxism and many could be far better than the system we have now imo.

Obviously corbyn isn't looking to replicate venezuela, that's been horrendously managed for a long time and was always going to end badly

Being critical of capitalism doesn't mean supporting Marxism of any type. One can be very critical of both. There are more options and new ideas not even considered yet, and that's what we need. Ideas for our times and needs, not something dreamed up in the 1800s by people I wouldn't exactly say were any sort of people most would want in power.

There have been many variants of Marxism tried. They all failed with millions of deaths. Marx's predictions - other than it would require violence to enact - have all been wrong. Saying they aren't "real Marxist countries" because they didn't have the predicted results is nonsense (and a bit elitist to think you know better than the people who openly stated they were and actively worked to put Marxism into practice. Why do you think you know better than people who gave their lives for this?) just as people who go on about how the UK or the US aren't "real capitalist countries" because neither have a totally free unregulated market.

Nature isn't equal or fair, humans - as part of nature - are not equal or fair without effort. In order to counter that, you need continuously adaptable systems and accountability in-built that recognizes humans and organizations designed by humans will bend towards corruption and the hoarding of resources and power at the expense of others. Thinking any short-term dictatorship is going to move towards utopia is to entirely disregard everything we know about nature, psychology, sociology, and pretty much anything else we know about reality.

Also, if you're interested in citizen's income, I would suggest reading into Universal Basic Services which is both more realistic and far more like a Star Trek future (which, while a money-optional economy, isn't Marxism as the state still exists and is not in control of the working classes. Even as a fantasy, they were more realistic in that than Marx).

@Limensoda , have you lived under one of these regimes. Because I have. People fuck up. They get nasty when other people don't agree with them. And everyone is shabby and poor apart from those manipulating the situation. And I mean everyone. There is nothing to aim for apart from hurting other people on your way up. Ambition is frowned upon as suspect.
You want that?

The system needs checks and balances, but we do not have unregulated capitalism

A fairer society is what everyone wants apart from the extremes, Marxism isn't the answer

As PP have said the amount paid out in error/due to fraud, is tiny. However the big stick (investigations, prosecutions etc) is used as a deterrent.

The biggest issue I have is that the current system is based heavily on trickle-down economics - which simply has not been working. It misses the fact that extremely wealthy people tend to shield their assets - they can afford to pay for the best advice, to have offshore accounts, to pay for professional tax and wealth specialists on how to minimise their tax exposure. It ignores the fact that a wealthy person buying a luxury property in London probably won't live in it all year round. That the council tax is not related to the current market value. That their household staff will probably travel with them. That very little of their spending will benefit local businesses and shops - high value purchases in luxury stores do little for the local area, because those shops are usually part of large corporations which have complicated legal structures specifically to take advantage of multiple taxation regimes, which in turn lead to them paying very low rates of corporation tax (if any at all).

Can everyone stop slagging off Corbyn, sure, he might look like your geography teacher and act like his ideologies have never left the 6tg form common room but he has Dianne Abbott to help him. What could possibly go wrong???

Suma sell food for the middle classes. The idea is good and it works on the small scale with a small market but I don’t know may who can afford to pay near on £3 for a small bag of pasta.

Or perhaps you have already heard the story of the Russian boy celebrating by the USSR because he informed on his own parents for hoarding grain for which they were executed.

Pavlik Morozov, a Soviet Icon.

Again, surely the fact that some humans actively try to avoid tax is a point against socialism.

I wasn’t talking about the amount of tax evaded or what is spent on investigations into benefit fraud. it’s the fact we have to pay millions to investigate these things because people lie to get things they aren’t entitled too. Be that benefits or taxes.

@Limensoda , have you lived under one of these regimes

No, I'm not interested in Marxism,....I want Socialism.

Unregulated capitalism is just as dangerous as Marxism. I want socialism, social justice.

Fuck off with you, Jeremy Corbyn. And take Nigel Farage with you.

Suma pasta is not £3 a packet it's £1.04 for organic and Italian. Or 12.51 for a case of 12 and it's made by a workers coop in northern Italy who use bronze dies to create a superior texture. I just logged on to get the actual figure, you're welcome!

If the OP believes that there are many forms of Marxism and many could be far better than the system we have now imo
Then she/he should chose one of these systems, and go and live under it for about six months.
She/he would then be able to speak from experience.
I suspect the experience would not be very happy, but...……….maybe not!

Sorry it is the gluten free which is £2.70 but even at a pound it is expensive as I can buy Tesco own 500gms so a bigger bag for 50p

Tesco gluten free is £1.15 again for a bigger bag.

What would you do to the people who don't want to be part of your Marxist society?

What would you do to the people who don't want to be part of your Marxist society?

Such people deserve a second chance by re-education in camps and workhouses alongside their families. They cannot be allowed to rot the pure Marxist society from the inside, so they cannot be left to practice their professions.

Of course.

Or instead of your extremist bullshit that would never work we could just reform society ever so slightly? Shock horror, todays country isn't all that terrible but your daydream damn well will be

You have read George Orwell’s Animal Farm haven’t you? 🙄

That's comparing organic and non organic though, not really a fair comparison as soil association is expensive to get.

Just giving an example of a company where it's working great.

500g is the same wiefht. Yes you can buy cheaper but it's double the price for a premium pasta from a coop using traditional methods that give a better result. It's not the same product.

No, I'm not interested in Marxism,....I want Socialism

Socialism in East Germany was so popular that they had to build a wall with an adjoining death strip and turrets to keep out the masses fleeing capitalism in the West. Oh, hang on, it was the other way round!

The Socialist economy worked so well that West Germans had to send food parcels to their unlucky relatives.

Socialism my arse. I have seen it and it was shit. I really wonder what JC saw on his motorbike holiday in East Germany that attracted him to socialism. Did he queue up for a table in a restaurant and enjoy the one meal on offer? Did he see the empty shelves in the supermarkets? Or did he buy his provisions in the special shops with western goods, paying with Deutschmarks or ££, buying stuff that the average GDR citizen could only dream about?

I really wonder what JC saw on his motorbike holiday in East Germany that attracted him to socialism

I suppose he didn't need to wear shoes two sizes too small because that's all they had in the shops.

Such people deserve a second chance by re-education in camps and workhouses alongside their families. They cannot be allowed to rot the pure Marxist society from the inside, so they cannot be left to practice their professions.

Yup, most the people wanting pure socialism or one of many strands of Marxism usually see themselves inside the enlightened few and not the street cleaners,miners etc.

I'm still waiting to see how the world isn't different now from Marx times, or about his famous unpublished letter pokes massive holes in the psuedo religion

Or instead of your extremist bullshit that would never work we could just reform society ever so slightly?

Don't be so sensible!

Seriously though, almost everyone I met in my youthful radical days was mostly in it for the drama...bit of a punch up at a demonstration etc etc.