Over 8s in the changing rooms

[HenweeArcher]

I’ve started swimming just before swimming lessons at my gym recently as it fits in well with the crèche being quiet. I’ve noticed that no matter what day I swim, I can always count at least 2 or 3 boys who are almost undoubtedly over 8 (which is the rule) in the female changing rooms just before lessons. Sometimes they use the separate cubicles (there are a couple in the corners) to change themselves so are more than capable of changing alone! I’m aware that some boys might need extra support for whatever reason but I fail to believe that a handful every day at a small health club do.

AIBU to mention it to management? It doesn’t necessarily affect me a great deal as I’m fairly relaxed about nudity and don’t see it as my responsibility to all of a sudden start changing under a towel or anything but I do feel it’s unfair for younger girls to be put in this position.

I'm not demanding that boys be allowed to over ride girls privacy, or vice versa, I'm just flabbergasted at the absolute disregard for considering other children just because they are boys.

Exactly this. It seems to always be a theme that young girls are prioritised and people don't think about young boys because well, they are boys. That's sad. Specially as the obvious solution of a unisex facility for families isn't something that can quickly just happen and no club has to even agree to do that, we need to sometimes look at the whole situation and realise that safety of children should always come first, no matter the gender.

Are you inferring that female children should be able to change without exposing any skin and in doing so make it acceptable for 8 plus year old boys to be in their changing spaces?

I'm not inferring....I'm saying it is. I'm saying they have an adult with them to assist them.
I'm saying an 8 year old boy is a child who is just as vulnerable as an 8 year old girl.
They are CHILDREN.

Most pools have cubicles for changing but if not you can manage the situation without kids standing around naked.

Maybe people should remember too that most sexual abuse happens in the home by trusted people known to you or your child.

HalfBloodPrincess

Right hold up.

My issue is with the ability of an 8/9 year old to manage unsupervised so ease up on the "it's for men to sort out/ban men" etc.

This is a problem that affects children so it's down to the parents of children to get better facilities.

If you had a 9 year old dd who needed a bit of help changing there would be no issue. If that dd had to go with her dad, but still needed help your answer would be what?

Why do you have to make every issue
" this is for men to sort out"?

Make swimming lessons at the weekend and ban all parents from the changing rooms. There you go. That equalises things a lot.

The safety risk has to outweigh the embarrassment risk, surely. It’s not about boys v girls, it’s about two different sorts of risk

I’d agree if we wasn’t talking about sacrificing a woman/girls safe space. Why are females being made to give something up to keep boys safe? Why is this acceptable? It’s not females right to privacy that should be being held accountable.

I don’t think boys should be in the girls’ changing room and mine ok this situ would go to the men’s (I have two so at least they would have each other) but I don’t like the assumption that boys would be happy to be there and perving over girls’ bodies. My sons would be more worried and upset about women and girls seeing their bodies.

Why are females being made to give something up to keep boys safe? Why is this acceptable?

Because it's children ffs!.... Not unaccompanied male predators...little boys!

If you had a 9 year old dd who needed a bit of help changing there would be no issue. If that dd had to go with her dad, but still needed help your answer would be what?

Use somewhere that had a unisex changing facility. I wouldn’t expect my dd to go into the men’s with her dad.

“but there will be times where a girl's needs are above a boys and in this case its the boys safety that trumps the girls needs”

When do boys’ needs trump those of boys? Why is the only feasible option considered boys going in with girls?

I have a son. Having had daughters there is no way in hell he’d come in with me after 8 years although I doubt he’d let me. My older kids have just been to a swimming event this evening. They couldn’t be bothered getting changed there so showered at home and went home in swimmers. If I felt uncomfortable with my 8 plus year old son changing at the pool then I’d do something like that. He might be a bit wet for a bit but I don’t think any very minor physical discomfort overrides the needs for similarly aged girls to change without self-consciousness.

It’s a moot point though because out public pools always have boys changing independently and after aged 8 he’s not allowed in female changing rooms.

In lots of cases it is a choice to attend a leisure centre that has (or doesn't have) family changing rooms. If I felt uncomfortable with my 8yo using male toilets alone or changing in a male changing room, then I need to choose facilities that are better suited to my choice (family toilets and family changing).

As it happens, I'm not too worried about it. DD has changed on her own since 8yo in the female changing rooms when she's had a swimming lesson that DH has taken her to. She could change/dry herself and use a locker from age 7 when I started teaching her. DH and I will do the same with DS as he gets older. He will have to use male toilets so I don't see male changing as too different. I'd be more worried that he'd lock himself in a cubicle and not be able to get out or not be able to find/open the locker, than him being abused. We go for swimming lessons so both sex changing rooms are busy with parents and children.

It’s not about boys v girls, it’s about two different sorts of risk.

This is a pretty good summary.

I am interested though in what people think the cut off age is? I still think boys at 11/12 are at risk in the men’s alone though no?

“Most pools have cubicles for changing but if not you can manage the situation without kids standing around naked”.

limen believe it or not, different swimming pools in different countries have different configurations.
“Most” pools where I live don’t have individual cubicles.

Is your solution to girls not wanting boys seeing them getting changed to tell them to change without getting naked?

So, not only do girls in early puberty have to accept similarly aged boys in their spaces because (somehow) EQUALITY they also have to learn to change clothes without being naked.

TBH it's so busy after swimming lessons that lots of parents just shove a onesie on their kids poolside and bundle them into their car anyway!

“Maybe people should remember too that most sexual abuse happens in the home by trusted people known to you or your child.”

I do agree most sexual abuse occurs from people known to your child, but if we’re talking about risk factors in the context of this thread it’s important to remember that the list of people your child trusts would absolutely include swimming coaches and friends’ parents- both of whom could have unsupervised access to a child in the changing-rooms.

Sadly, it’s not unheard of at all for children to be abused at extra-curricular activities by the professionals that are trusted to teach them.

I took my Reception aged daughter to her swimming lesson yesterday. She is at the age where she is starting to understand that her body is private. The changing rooms are open plan but have a few cubicles over to the side. She chose to change in a cubicle but I left the door ajar as I was back and forth to the locker just outside the cubicle. Just as she was about to take off her underwear she asked me to close the door so no one could see her...I turned around and an older girl of around 7 was standing in the doorway staring at her. I closed the door in her face.

Boys will look, girls will look. It's not sexual, they're curious. The problem lies with the changing facilities offered at many leisure centres and pools, not the children trying to go for a swim.

Is your solution to girls not wanting boys seeing them getting changed to tell them to change without getting naked?

The boys don't want girls seeing THEM naked either.
Are you saying only girls feelings matter?
Both are CHILDREN.
Are you suggesting little boys shouldn't go swimming or that they should go into men's changing rooms on their own?
In a situation where there's no acceptable alternative it has to be managed.

It’s like banging your head against a brick wall sometimes.

There’s a choice. You either use the facility for your sex or go somewhere with unisex changing. You do not encroach on female only spaces.

Would you go into the men’s changing room with your son to help? Would you be comfortable having a dad come into the female changing room to help his dd? No?

Then You do not make those choices on behalf of other females who choose to use the single sex facilities by bringing someone of the opposite sex in.

Then You do not make those choices on behalf of other females who choose to use the single sex facilities by bringing someone of the opposite sex in

I don't think anyone wants a sexually developed male to be accepted in female changing rooms.
A little boy isn't a threat. You are more a threat to him.
If you looked at my 9 year old child and saw a sexual risk I'd think you had problems.

There’s a choice. You either use the facility for your sex or go somewhere with unisex changing. You do not encroach on female only spaces.
There isnt always that choice. What if its a small town/village with only one option that doesnt have unisex, the parent should drive furher away? What if the family cannot afford to pay the prices for lessons at the option with unisex and can only afford the one without? Does that mean their child doesnt get to go swimming because of it?

Ffs it’s not about the sexual risk. It’s about teaching girls that their right to feel comfortable and to privacy is valid. And teaching boys that they do not get to stomp all over that right.
No one is saying that a 9 year old boy is going to sexually assault a young girl (although it’s not an impossibility)

If the boy is 10/11/12 then fine, yes they should be in the men's. But my son is just about to turn 8 and there is no way on this planet I would be letting him go into the mens changing rooms, or into men's toilets on his own. Just no way.

Also, even At our primary school the class gets changed together in the classroom for pe, boys and girls together right up to leaving at 11.

Does that mean their child doesnt get to go swimming because of it?

That’s not a problem for the females that want to use sex segregated facilities to sort out.

If you don't like the rules and facilities on offer, then you find and use facilities that fit your choice. Plenty of larger leisure centres offer family/unisex changing. If you think your 9yo boy is at risk of being abused using the male only changing room then use a leisure centre with unisex facilities, don't bring them into the female changing room that stipulates no over 8s.

Personally, I don't think my child is at huge risk of being abused in a busy male changing room at 9yo. My children are taught to get changed quickly and confidently, they don't need adult help so any adult attempting to help them would flag as odd with them. My children use their correct sex toilets when out and about which again has some risk associated with it.

“In a situation where there's no acceptable alternative it has to be managed.”

True.

And your solution is to have your 8 plus year old boy change with girls, knowing that those whose bodies are changing or who are of a similar age don’t want him there.

My solution - which is theoretical because over 8 year olds aren’t allowed in the female change rooms - would not be one that would encroach on female spaces. I would say that girls might not feel comfortable with a boy in their changing room and if there was a reason the men’s was unsafe he could change at home, afterwards.

He may be a bit damp but the car is warm. I
wouldn’t send him into a female space where an 8 year old girl may be getting changed and may be self-conscious. I wouldn’t expect the entire changing room to accommodate him by somehow removing swimmers and getting into clothes without being naked and I don’t think sending my son into a girls’ space promotes EQUALITY.

My DS1 is very small for his age and has adhd, so I let him come into the ladies with me until nearly 9. I know he has no interest whatsoever in seeing ladies naked. Due to the adhd I was slightly worried I'd never see him again if I let him go in the men's (prone to zoning out completely in the shower).

So I managed to persuade both of my boys (DS2 is 6) to go into the men's together (safety in numbers and all that). It's a busy gym and the changing rooms are pretty open. I give them a time they are allowed to shower for so they don't get lost! I do sometimes have to send a friendly lifeguard or dad I know in there to retrieve them as they take forever to get changed.

Mumsnet logic

On the trans toilet debate: "safety trumps feelings"

On male CHILDREN changing with thier mums "feelings trump safety"

My eldest has just turned 5, he is big for his age and wears age seven clothes, like fuck will I be compromising his safety when he looks like an 8 year old to spare the feelings of others, to me swimming is an essential life skill so we will not be avoiding swimming either.

I hate communal changing rooms, even as an adult who has had two children I even feel uncomfortable changing in front of other women but until such time that changing rooms are all cubibles safety is paramount.