Michael Jackson and the new documentary

[joystir59]

Leaving Neverland, being shown at the Sundance film festival and in the spring on Channel 4....I love his music and have believed he was vilified by the racist media, and by greedy individuals and families after his money; but am really not so sure of his innocence any more. I guess that's my aibu- that we have to listen to his accusers don't we? I was sexually abused as a ternager, and not believed. It was a profoundly damaging experience.

I think what can be hoped to be achieved (from documentary) is not so much swaying the hardcore fans that MJ was a sexual abuser, but as a society learn from history.

As distressing as the Savile scandal was, the idea that scores of people can know about suspicious and outright abusive behaviour and not act upon, and some would say cover for it, is what makes the whole thing so shocking.

For a start, hopefully celebrities are learning appropriate boundaries when with minors and children are safeguarded when they are anywhere near them. Just as MJs victim's parents were dropping their kids off at his home, was a similar thing happening at totps studio. As parents hopefully we have learned the lesson and wouldn't dream of letting history repeat itself. I also think, if others come forward and speak up, that abuse should not be taboo and that secrets need to be out in the open. Institutional cover-up of abuse can only work as long as everybody complies to a conspiracy of silence.

What’s so disturbing is the way he groomed those boys over time so they felt like they were in a relationship, they felt as though they’d agreed to it and it was their fault. I guess it’s what all paedophiles do, but he seemed to do it to a whole new level. I for one will not be able to see one of his music videos again without changing the channel or hear his music without feeling sick. I guess he was abused as a child and he grew up to abuse others, and no one really stopped him. It’s just terrible.

Without a doubt 'love bombing' and making one feel special is absolutely a tactic of abusers sexual or otherwise. I had that. I imagine there was a bit of kudos for being his 'favourite'. Is anyone else getting covert narcissism from MJ persona?

Its the people who call him 'Michael' as if they're best mates on first name terms who freak me out for some reason.

May I ask, MNHQ, for you to let me or other members here know- which guideline I broke? Since I've read them thoroughly & don't appear to have broken any. I haven't attacked anyone or trolled. Or is it that you simply erased my messages because you disagree with my point of view? When forum admin won't allow people to post innocent messages that disagree with their opinions, that's when forums lose members.

@SemperIdem I'm sorry you feel I'm obtuse (that's a personal attack, which is breaking the guidelines- I'd never call anyone names, yet your message is being allowed by MNHQ), so may I ask which guideline of their "campaign" you think I broke?

It’s a deliberate isolating technique to single out a “chosen one” from the group. It promotes devision and insecurity and makes a group of people far easier to control.

Inviting the families to stay as guests is also part of the grooming process, all be it a counter intuitive one to those not versed in the abusers playbook.

It allows the abuser to watch the family dynamics in relaxed circumstances. Work out who are the vigilant parents, who has cracks in the marital and/or child/parent relationships, who has close relationships with siblings and what outside pressures may be on the family (social, finacial etc). So on and so on.

This is why there will be plenty of families who stayed at Neverland and their children were not abused. They are not lying. The families where children were abused not lying. Their experiences differ because one set will have proved too“high risk” to pursue an abuse agenda. The family unit too tight, parents too vigilant, no weaknesses that could be leveraged etc.

Abusers know that there are significant risks to, not only personal liberty but their very life if they are caught by a furious parent. They work hard and take time to create an environment that is conducive to them getting away with it.

Calling someone obtuse is a description of perceived behaviour, not a personal attack frankiesamson

I agree about deleted messages I cannot understand why mine was deleted.

@jacksonmaine glad to see I'm agreed with about the messages being deleted. What did yours say?

Mine were fairly innocuous, I think in one I suggested posters to allow different opinions without getting too upset. Yet it was deleted 😂

@LuggsaysNotaWomen by that reasoning, there would be no such thing as a personal attack!

You could also say calling someone "an idiot" or "gay f* (I won't say the word)" is a description of behaviour, but they're still personal attacks.

Calling someone a “gay f*k” is perjorative name calling. Saying someone is being obtuse is a description of behaviour. One is allowed, one isn’t. If you can’t understand the difference, I can’t help you.

@LuggsaysNotaWomen if you can't understand that being gay & obtuse are both descriptions of behaviour then I can't help you either- neither of which I have ever called anyone!

Ah but you didn’t say gay, you said “gay f*”. If you had used the example of calling someone gay because they were engaging in homosexual acts, even if they don’t identify as gay, that indeed wouldn’t be a personal attack and merely a description of behaviour - but you didn’t.

Anyway, I’m not going to engage in this anymore, I’ve said all I want to say abou MJ and I don’t think we are going to have a meeting of minds which is all well and good.

@LuggsaysNotaWomen so what would be a personal attack then? By your reckoning, nothing would. Well...? Thought so.

I'm pretty sure if I call you obtuse now, my message would be erased by MNHQ.

@LuggsaysNotaWomen gay f*%#~$ is a description of behaviour - it describes homosexual intercourse, so your argument unfortunately fails on that front as well.

I am very interested to see this documentary. I think the reason more victims have not come forward is exactly because of the abuse those that have come forward have received. It's victim shaming and blaming.

@HerondaleDucks what abuse did they receive? How do u know that's why no more came forward? The other possibility is that there are no more.

I'm sorry you don't see victim shaming as abusive but I certainly do. The ultimate fans who call those that have come forward, I think there are at least 5 atm who have accused him of some kind of inappropriate behaviour or sexual molestation or assault or grooming etc. But because mj hasn't been found guilty in a court of law they are liars and scum of the earth.
This is why victims of abuse and rape don't come forward because there is nothing worse than not being believed over something that destroyed you inside.
There might not be any more people to come forward. But that does not mean that those that have should be believed any less.

@HerondaleDucks when did I say I don't see victim shaming as abuse? Please don't put words in my mouth, thanks.

I didn't notice that line in your post.

You said what abuse did they receive? I can only ascertain from that that you don't see victim shaming/blame as abuse from public/family/media etc.
I'm not putting words in your mouth at all. Why are you being so confrontational?

I'm not being confrontational. I was simply asking what abuse he received. Why are u being so confrontational?

🤨 calling someone a “gay fuck” would be a deliberate and perjorative insult. Really very different to saying someone is being obtuse

Back in 1978 Johnny Rotten stated on a chat show that Jimmy Saville was a sexual predator and paedophile. The BBC banned t gat broadcast and refused to have it mentioned.
Rolf Harris. Stewart Hall and others who were seen to be fab people, yet all hiding a terrible secret.
Until Saville died and the lid got blown clean off.
I believe MJ did commit those atrocious acts. He may be deemed to have been a wonderful father, however many ' wonderful ' father's are capable of committing sexual offences and paedophilia. Being a Father, or even sometimes a mother doesn't stop such crimes.
As a said earlier, if I went to a shop and slid a bottle of wine up my jumper and walked out without paying for it unseen, it doesn't mean that I've not stolen it or that I'm not a thief, it means that my crime is undetected.
The next time I go to the same supermarket and buy a bottle of wine. They accuse me of stealing it and because I can show my receipt, I'm seen as innocent.
However, the fact that I stole the wine previously doesn't wipe me clean of guilt for previous undetected crimes.

I must add that I have never stolen a bottle of wine or anything else.