Michael Jackson and the new documentary

[joystir59]

Leaving Neverland, being shown at the Sundance film festival and in the spring on Channel 4....I love his music and have believed he was vilified by the racist media, and by greedy individuals and families after his money; but am really not so sure of his innocence any more. I guess that's my aibu- that we have to listen to his accusers don't we? I was sexually abused as a ternager, and not believed. It was a profoundly damaging experience.

Age of consent in uk is 16. This is from google for USA:

The federal law establishes the age of 12 as the minimum age of consent

Which is right? They can't both be, unless different areas somehow change moral values, which as you imply, are black & white.

I'm not apologising for MJ (whom we don't know whether was guilty or not), I'm simply pointing out there are different sides to every argument so there's no reason to get so wound up & insult each other on a forum.

???

Age of consent in the US is State dependent and is from 16-18 years.
www.thesurvivoralliance.com/legal-age-consent-50-states/

Grew up with his music, but when I started hearing things about him and children? Nope: nope nope nope. It doesn't matter how it's dressed up; he was a paedophile.

Regardless of whether u formed an opinion on him being innocent or guilty, don't you have your own lives & problems to deal with?

We can care about things beyond our small circle, you know. I assume you have an interest in the outside world?

And of course people are getting het up - discussion of possible child abusers tends to have that effect.

This thread has made me want to join Salem in banging my head against a wall.

In one sense though, it is illuminating in how predators get away with their crimes, as there are so many enabling fucking idiots who refuse to see what is clearly in front of them. That so many are prepared to overlook, dismiss and warp reality to believe in someone who has done nothing to earn such loyalty is mind-boggling. If this is what they are like with a total stranger, imaging how much further they would go with family members or loved ones.
Disturbing but sadly, educational.

Age of consent? Reallly? Never have I read such a disgusting load of paedophile proganda.

So you do think MJ had sexual relationships with children but also think that's its OK if the legal system of the country where the abuse took place is set low enough to make it legal there?

No civilised country in the world has an age of consent of 7 years old.

You think a grown man having sexual relations with a 12 year old boy is OK??

FYI the age of consent in California where Neverland is situated is 18.

No one wants to believe he was a monster, least of all his kids. I want to believe he was innocent. I was brought up on his music as a child watched him through my childhood. He was a big part of our lives if you are of a certain age. Umfortunately now there is too much that poimts to him being guilty than not. Look at the rest of his siblings they seem pretty straight forward. I know he probably suffered more abuse and had a different life due to fame but looking back at his behaviour and lifestyle it doesn't warrant such disparity.

And yes his dancing stage persona was pretty fucking odd if you think about it. Why hang out with children etc but think up dance moves which hold your crotch, pant and simulate sex if you know millions of children copy your dance moves and countless children did and no one batted an eyelid.

He may have been restrained and only abused a few children but he was definitely up to no good.

** ...and those children should not be discounted, they should be believed, supported and compensated for his actions.

I also believe those dance moves were part of the grooming process.

@SalemtheBIackCat
@TwitToWoo
The question has no bearing on what I've been talking about at all.
I'll reverse the question and ask you if you'd let your children sleep in an adults bed?
I'm assuming the answer is no.
Because you have said no, what difference does that make to wether he was guilty or not?
Parents allowed it and encouraged it, saying that you wouldn't allow only speaks of your opinion on the parents involved.
A person with moral integrity would state outright that it is wrong.
I have said that it's not appropriate behaviour- even before I was asked the question.

There’s always been credible evidence against him. A jury made up of idiots doesn’t mean there wasn’t.
Calling anyone an idiot because it's not the result you agree with doesn't make it you right and them wrong.
Twit You're trying to bully Polly and it's really not on.
Thanks @southeastdweller
I don't think @TwitToWoo is a bully- difficult subjects stir up strong views. Getting personal and name calling is just clutching at straws.
@Andromeida59
Yes because that is normal to do so. Like I said it's a case I don't know anything about. He was found guilty in a civil case I believe. I know a lot about the MJ case, I've been reading about it for years and that has shaped my opinion. My opinion on OJ doesn't have any relevance to this anyway. You could argue that plenty of innocent men have been executed or locked up for decade s only to be exonerated years later. They were found guilty so most believed they were guilty until it was proven otherwise.

I don't agree with this 'age of consent' business. That's not part of my argument at all, anyone under 18 is a child and age of consent is 16.

Occam’s razor, anyone?

On the one hand there’s an adult man who spends his time with boys, builds relationships with their parents and eventually sleeps with the boys unsupervised and is accused of inappropriate sexual contact with these boys during these sleepovers. This man seeks out, grooms and eventually abuses these boys.

On the other hand, this asexual, pure “man child” loves children so much he builds a special fantasy play area in his house so he can spend time with them. He enjoys this so much he has sleepovers with them but by some odd statistical anomaly every single child he becomes close to is a boy, not a girl. Some of the boys later grow up and say he abused them but this is disbelieved because . They are all lying because the man is ever so talented and everyone knows that he isn’t interested in sexual relationships with anyone. They know this because he is famous and because he denies abusing these boys when they spend the night at his house.

the kid that lied committed suicide @Tellem2
Actually he didn't. Get your fact straight. Jordan Chandler never spoke about what MJ allegedly did or didn't do, his father did. And his father, Evan committed suicide, not the "kid" but don't let facts ruin your story!

Sorry link

Yes committed suicide not long after MJ died, no one attended his funeral.
Jordan Chandler emancipated himself from his parents after the trial and never spoke to them again.

The full documentary is on You Tube. I started watching it this morning, will finish it later. So far, not all that interesting or perhaps that's just me not in the mood.

What interests me is how parents and family members deal with a child who grows up showing signs that they are developing sexual feelings for children. I remember MJ as a child. At some point clearly his sexual development was fixed on children. In his case one can only assume his family were in denial about it. What happens now when this happens in families?

Does anyone else think there is something very dark about the Jackson family as a whole?

I think the difference between MJ and the Savile scandal is that when JS died he had nobody financially benefitting from his name. As soon as one person whistle-blew nobody had his back. I think whilst he was alive everyone who knew and said nothing was benefitting in one way or another.

The BBC had saviles back until the day he died.

I think there needs to be large number of witnesses and whistle-blowers who are not in a position to profit from speaking out (as in the Savile scandal) before victims are able to get any kind of validation and closure.

I remember one of Saviles victims just wanting to be believed.

Joe Jackson died June last year. I wonder if this will be the beginning of the whole truth coming out? Maybe the doc will give others the confidence to speak up.

I agree with you Vasilisa19. It is known that Joe Jackson was abusive.

Given the amount of surgery some of the Jacksons had, it is almost like they want to escape from themselves. Turn themselves into new people.

The irony is, MJ was clever and he was cunning. He knew exactly what he was doing and why. He admitted to carefully cultivating his persona.....wearing the plasters on his fingers, wearing one glove, his falsetto voice.

Strange how a falsetto voice is more childlike and appealing to children, isn't it? So that children would feel he was "one of them".

The irony is, given that he was so intelligent and cunning, he would most likely think his most stalwart fans are thick as pigshit for not joining the dots of his actions.

I have never been on a thread before where I can honestly say that some of the posters should not be parents. As they display warped idea re appropriate boundaries for children.

Being such a super fan of ANYTHING once you are old enough to be a parent, to the point that you will explain away behaviour that is obviously abusive, is also absolutely tragic.

I hope the abuse 'network' in Hollywood gets blown apart but I don't think it will. Too many wealthy men involved.

You got the scum still working on major films, one paedophile was removed from directing a major film in its last few weeks but has made ££££££ from it.

You have Weinstein still not in Prison or anywhere nr a court, same goes for Spacey - making a film clip as a finger up to his victims?

I'm for #mettoo but nothing really is happening with these predatory men.

He knew exactly what he was doing and why
He would have, unless you really believe the idea that he was never told by his advisors that his actions and interactions around children could be interpreted as sinister.

He must have, at some point, been told to step away and take more of a backseat towards children, and he ignored it.

You got the scum still working on major films
Victor Salva filmed himself molesting the 12 year old actor in clownhouse, he's still directing now, mostly recently the Jeepers creepers films.

Maybe when Katherine Jackson dies more will come out. Another difference between Michael Jackson and Saville is that Saville didn't have kids. I do feel sorry for his kids.

I don't think anything will change when MJ's mother dies, well apart from her not holding the Jackson's purse strings...

It is all about the money, always has been.