to think this is a crappy way to teach?

[swishyinhersatinandtat]

Just had DS9 come down from bed in floods of tears.

Turns out at school - he's in year 4 - there's a 'times tables challenge' - kids are tested on rapid recall of tables over a 3 minutes. According to how many get right they move up levels - bronze, silver, gold etc. This is on a board at the front of the class for all to see. He and two other kids are at the bottom.

It surprises me a bit as - please don't think I'm boasting - he's always been academically very strong at maths - lots of extension work in lower years, shining reports blah blah. That's not what concerns me though. What I don't like is displaying names like this - surely some kids are going to struggle more than others? Why display their names? Aptitude at certain things is so different to moving names up and down a behaviour chart. Also this seems to go against the whole school ethos of 'don't learn things in parrot fashion' etc.

I get that this isn't a major issue, but DS was very upset. DH thinks I'm being ridiculous and this is a normal way to teach. Opinions?

When I was at school names were always displayed on lists in class after tests etc. Mine was often at the bottom. I hated it!
I thought things had improved in schools, clearly not.
I guess much of life is about competition though. Sometimes we do well and are at the top of lists and sometimes we don't and are at the bottom.

I was a bit surprised but it happened at ds’ school as well. The kids seemed fairly unconcerned.

I'm surprised too. School is big on 'mistakes are good, that's how we learn' - but this seems like the opposite. Yes, life is about competition - but they've got so many more academic years where there will be exam results and ability sets etc. Surely in Year 4 it should be about encouragement and building confidence?

They did that at dd’s primary too. I agree it’s not great.

Kids need to know their their timestables and the 9nly way is by rote learning.keep asking him them and he will move up.

Is it linked to an app and how much they do outside of school? Dds school does rock star times tables in a similar way.

By the end of year 4 children need to know all tables up to 12, repetitions are the only way. It’s not as brutal as it sounds. Just keep going, recite them in the car...
this coming from the most laid back ‘let children be little’ lax parent you will ever meet!

DS does those at school too, Cracking Times Tables? You can find the tests they use online and practise them which kind of defeats the point in my eyes...

Anyway, if I found out that the scores were being put up on the board, I’d be asking the teacher to take them down. Some children will never be able to recall or work fast enough to be able to progress through the levels and all it does is to reinforce yet another thing that they aren’t able to do. Pretty crap really.

The idea is that they compete against their own score rather than other children.

I'm a teacher and agree it's not a very encouraging way to teach. There's a big new nationwide times tables test being piloted this year to be taken by Year 4s so schools are really pushing it but denting kids' confidence isn't helpful. I would have a quiet word with the teacher about how he feels.

I'm not sure it is particularly different to names on a behaviour chart. I bet the kids at the bottom of that feel pretty shitty.

We have the times table challenge at my school (I'm a teacher), and kids get certificates or something for bronze/silver/gold/platinum level, but I don't think they display who's not achieved an award.

Blamed the government for introducing a statutory times tables test which they will be judged against.

Curriculum changed, now the expectation is that children know all their tables and the inverse by the end of Y4. So the pressure is on. Display of where you are on the levels is something I’ve seen in a lot of schools, they are trying to harness the competitive edge to get children to focus and practise. For so many children and schools, the new curriculum is a nightmare and the expectations ridiculous.

The thing is, I've never encouraged DS to do the rote learning/chanting tables thing that I did as a kid. Until now, he's always done super well in maths lessons and any tests, so I never saw any need to. However he was explaining to me that he actually does quickly work times tables out in his head - he doesn't know them parrot fashion.

Maybe it's my fault for not encouraging him to learn like that - but I'm more pissed off about displaying the kids' names in this way!

Displaying where all the children are won’t encourage the children who would have struggled regardless, it will put them off even bothering to try. What a depressing state education is in

As a teacher and parent I can tell you that it is not uncommon for some of the stronger mathematicians to take longer than expected to learn their times tables. Not knowing his times tables well is not a reflection of his ability per se, but if he does not learn them it WILL hold him back as he moves to year 6. Rote learning will be the only way to do it I am afraid. I disagree with the way his school is illustrating the childrens' knowledge and I too would be annoyed. But aside from that, I would recommend that you help him learn his times tables as much as you can. Using rewards, little and often learning, using them in games, puzzles and problems and learning them by rote is the best way to do this. Best of luck with it and I hope your son rises above it and uses it to spur him on

fizzicles - the thing is with behaviour, in the majority of cases, kids can control it, or attempt to. They're given warnings before their names are moved. Kids can't really control aptitude in the same way. Yes, you can strive to improve academically but this doesn't sit right with me. What would happen to dyslexic kids if you had a 'spelling challenge'?

Not knowing tables by rote, and the inverse, hampers children’s ability to work efficiently in maths, and the emphasis is now hugely on their ability to calculate mentally.
So he hasn’t been practising, and he’s near the bottom. More practise and he’ll start rising through the ranks. School is unlikely to change, too many children and parents like it, and it seems to be working in a lot of schools. It is what it is, and school needs to get a good pass rate.

Children who have dyslexia are often good at maths but really struggle with rote learning so don't know their tables. I would freak if l saw their names at the bottom for that. I am a teacher and my ds has dyslexia. My dh also shows lots of signs though never diagnosed in those days. He was badly beaten in school for not knowing his tables by heart. Yet he has a medical qualification and is very smart.
If he finds rote learning ok he can learn them not and they won't go astray on him but l would hate to see the names up.

A lot of children struggle to control their behaviour, and end up named and shamed and moved every day. Likewise children won’t get attendance certificates, but this is how schools and teachers are judged, so these things are a consequence of how politicians want our schools to be.

sevencontinents - thanks. He was spurned on and asked me to practice with him - apparently lots of kids chant tables in the car...we walk to school - but yes, maybe we do just have to get on and practice.

However, it's the 'I'm at the bottom' display thing that I'm raging about, how it's dented his confidence and made him feel like crap. He's really not oversensitive, so I'm wondering if I should raise with the school?

Barring any SEND rote learning is necessary. Instant recall of times tables makes a lot of other maths a lot quicker. It lessens the cognitive load because students aren't having to use their brain to find the times table and instead can focus on the new learning.

As for him feeling crap and wanting to learn them, I'd say the schools method has worked! He's incentivised to learn them. He will hopefully build some resilience by learning them and seeing his position improve.

For most students rote learning isn't beyond their ability. Usually schools will be sensitive to those that struggle with rote learning.

Having mummy ring and complain doesn't solve the problem. Your son needs to (and can) learn his times tables.

I think you should raise it.. Yes, they probably won't change now, but if enough parents over the years complain, it may be changed in time. In the meantime, I would use this as an opportunity to teach him that being 'at the bottom' of something (whether that is the lowest reading level, the last to be picked for the school team, the one not invited to the party or the one near the bottom of the times tables chart) is merely a fact of life - we are all at the bottom of something! But we can use it as an oppirtunity to get better if we can and not let it dent our confidence. That's what I would be saying to children and parents in my class if my school were so unwise as to make me do this!

Subscribe to times tables rockstars. He will pick them up really quickly.

Thanks seven...wise words. I did have a chat about exactly this - we're all good at different things and being the 'worst' at something can just be a part of life.

Dermy - yes, I'm in two minds. Obviously having mummy ring to complain isn't the best message BUT i am pretty appalled by using this method to 'incentivise' young kids...