to think this is a crappy way to teach?

[swishyinhersatinandtat]

Just had DS9 come down from bed in floods of tears.

Turns out at school - he's in year 4 - there's a 'times tables challenge' - kids are tested on rapid recall of tables over a 3 minutes. According to how many get right they move up levels - bronze, silver, gold etc. This is on a board at the front of the class for all to see. He and two other kids are at the bottom.

It surprises me a bit as - please don't think I'm boasting - he's always been academically very strong at maths - lots of extension work in lower years, shining reports blah blah. That's not what concerns me though. What I don't like is displaying names like this - surely some kids are going to struggle more than others? Why display their names? Aptitude at certain things is so different to moving names up and down a behaviour chart. Also this seems to go against the whole school ethos of 'don't learn things in parrot fashion' etc.

I get that this isn't a major issue, but DS was very upset. DH thinks I'm being ridiculous and this is a normal way to teach. Opinions?

When DS had timetable tests we used to do them on the school run. I would just ask him a few random ones every day

fevertree - we'll definitely try that. is it fun?!

I think you're deflecting on to the school because you're embarrassed that you haven't encouraged him to learn by rote and he's ended up at the bottom of the chart.
Some DCs can't control their behaviour. Behaviour charts are just as pernicious for them but your empathy on that point seems lacking. Hence why I think this is less about public humiliation and more about your anger at yourself.

I really can't understand why you think going back to basics every time a person is doing a multiplication is superior to rote learning.

And it would be horrible if your child was always the bottom of the list, but as this is a temporary blimp in his case, it won't do him any harm.

We use Rockstar times tables. It is such a good motivator and they have to learn to think quickly. We have a year 4 child who gets 233 right in 3 minutes. I think he's some kind of genius as my best score is 80! They gain coins for correct answers that they can spend on outfits to customise their avatars.

I know times tables are really being pushed at the moment as there is going to be a major SATs type test on them in future.

I hate behaviour charts and the type of chart you’ve described. Research has shown they do not motivate or change learning behaviours. Quite the opposite or they just encourage extrinsic motivation.

I'm dyslexic and could do further maths A level, but hated times tables with a passion. It just isn't how my brain works. A list of names on the board would have worried/demotivated me. Up there with reading out your spelling score in front of the whole class

I think its worth raising with the school, your DS can't be the only one who's feeling down about it. Plus it would be terrible if your son started to think he wasn't very good at maths anymore and so got demotivated.

On a side note my parents used to play a times tables singing story cassette whilst we had breakfast. I hated it and always associated it with the smell of toast, but I think it did help. I could recall songs much easier than numbers. I imagine theres loads of things like that on youtube these days.

Christ on a bike, I shudder at the thought of a timestable challenge. Still can’t my head around them 25 years after leaving school. I would have reacted exactly the same way as your DS at that age.

I would’ve hated this at school. I was a complete swot but not good with numbers at all! Just could not get the times tables into my head and I could never finish the times tables challenges we used to do against the clock. I was so frustrated with myself but my brain just couldn’t take it in. I would’ve hated having it displayed on the wall for all to see!

Anyway, I’m a scientist now so not knowing my times tables hasn’t done me too much harm!

Cutting to the end. In 1969 my bro and I went from a big Essex primary to a small, 3 forms 4-11 village primary in Wiltshire, lead by an older couple who'd taught at a prep school prior.

Blimey! Suddenly you had to know how to spell, how to throw and catch a ball well, and your tables, which were rapid fire around the classroom (of brighter 8 year olds and the odd held-back 12 year old).

Tell you what, we learned them rapid fire. With no SN, it's just a question of repetition.

My DS's MFL GCSEs also contained learned material, and it was a gift. Just learn it! Job done. Like how you learn Mississippi, and accommodation.

Bear in mind that some kids will find their excellence in this, where they are all left feet on the sports pitch.

I think behavioural charts and those bloody cloud/sunshine systems are awful and I would do away with them if I could. Can you imagine the reaction in the staff room if teachers were ranked by how their behaviour is perceived by the head? Or by their teaching ability?

This is not the fault of the government in my eyes. Yes, we have to teach and test the things they tell us but nobody is forcing teachers to rank children in such a blatant manner.

There will equally be children at the top of the list who will be feeling pressure to stay there and will punish themselves if they fail one week.

Ds4 (8) is in year 3 and has been doing these times tables. Originally the children only had about 50 seconds, but that changed recently and they get 3 minutes now. They also go up in bronze, silver, gold etc levels but I don't know if their names are displayed on a board.

All my boys have excelled at maths but they have all never really learned their times tables off by heart. Ds3 was in year 6 last year and his sats confirmed he was top of the class, but he still has to work out some of his multiplications. He is fast at working them out and does still work on it, but it hasn't stopped him doing really well. Maths was my best subject at school but i never learned the times tables by rote, I worked out ways to quickly work them out when asked them. Maybe come up with/look up ways of how to work the harder ones out quickly if your ds can't learn them by rote. Eg 8 X 7 is 7+7+7+7 then multiply the result by 2, so 28 X 2 = 56. Or 7+7 then X 2 and X 2 again, so 14 X 2 = 28 and 28 X 2 = 56. And 7 X 8 is the same thing. Break them down into easier multiples that are easy to do.

When I was at school I distinctly remember I couldn't pick up how to work out percentages so I worked out my own way. It has stayed with me for over 30 years. If I need to work out 20 percent of 50 (20 percent of 100 is 20 so 20 percent of 50 is 10) but my method (for harder ones) to work it out is to divide by 100 and multiply by the first number. So 50 / 100 = 0.5, X 20 = 10. Dh did a percentage the other day and it was alien to me how he did it.

Not everyone is the same, different people have to do different things in different ways, maybe help your ds find his way of doing things.

KateAidiesEarnings - not really. In all honesty - and this isn't a stealth boast - he's never seemed to need to practice them before! He's always done super well at maths - he does 'know' them and certainly in lower years he'd always get full marks in tests. I don't know if something's changed for him or it's that they practice at school less than did in Years 2 and 3 - but right now, clearly doesn't react well to churning them out in a rapid fire way....

Coyo - I don't think going back to basics is superior. ( I'm not sure needing to answer what 9x7 is in a split second is wildly important in the grand scheme of things though) - it's more about this 'naming and shaming' thing...

Can you imagine the reaction in the staff room if teachers were ranked by how their behaviour is perceived by the head? Or by their teaching ability?

Literally happens every year on results day.

What does the school do about children with SEN? This seems to be potentially very discriminatory against children with dyscalculia and memory problems.

Other issues aside, If names are displayed, this could be a GDPR issue. Are surnames displayed too?

I’m in primary so doesn’t so much for us.

And I think with results there is still an element of cohort that allows it to not be completely on the back of individual teachers although I see your point.

What I really meant was, what if we were ranked according to how good our lesson observations were? Or how difficult we’d been! I suppose in a sales led, competition environment business this is exactly what happens but not everybody is able to deal with that.

Interesting points. Please don't think I'm pro behaviour charts - I'm not at all! But I thought the way they worked was in a 'if you kick your classmate again I'll move your name to orange' - usually used more as a warning for troublesome behaviour etc, ie something a kid can usually control themselves.

Deathy - interesting. My eldest child never learned times tables by rote either and never had a problem either! And my second DS is very strong at maths too, but this times table challenge ain't working for him!

I agree with you OP, harnessing a child’s ‘competitive edge’ may work with some, others aren’t competitive and can easily become demoralised. And where it may build ‘resilience’ in some it can equally cause a ‘fuck it’ reaction in others. Personally I believe public shaming is a lazy method of teaching children anything, including expected behaviour.

I agree that learning by rote is useful but the whole times table challenge thing gets a bit full on imo.

As for having a chart...hardly positive reinforcement is it?

Other issues aside, If names are displayed, this could be a GDPR issue. Are surnames displayed too?

Something tells me the children are all aware of each others' surnames. This isn't a GDPR issue.

JetskiJane - I don't think it's a GDPR issue given they're 8 and 9 year olds in a classroom who all know each other!

Tell your DC his worth is not bound up in where he is in class (v important lesson). You are happy if you see him working hard at it. It has no bearing about how good at maths he is but will help him later - not reaching a certain ‘bar’ will probably disadvantage him slightly.

Better for him to have a personal best and try to beat it (though the sums will differ slightly each week). Self improvement rather than absolute ability is the important thing.

I wish all schools would encourage learning the times tables by rote. It really is the only way.

Heading to bed in a moment. Thanks for your input - yes, he should practice if it's going to improve his confidence with quick recall...but glad to hear that other people think that displaying names isn't the greatest teaching method. I will raise with the school.