to think this is a crappy way to teach?

[swishyinhersatinandtat]

Just had DS9 come down from bed in floods of tears.

Turns out at school - he's in year 4 - there's a 'times tables challenge' - kids are tested on rapid recall of tables over a 3 minutes. According to how many get right they move up levels - bronze, silver, gold etc. This is on a board at the front of the class for all to see. He and two other kids are at the bottom.

It surprises me a bit as - please don't think I'm boasting - he's always been academically very strong at maths - lots of extension work in lower years, shining reports blah blah. That's not what concerns me though. What I don't like is displaying names like this - surely some kids are going to struggle more than others? Why display their names? Aptitude at certain things is so different to moving names up and down a behaviour chart. Also this seems to go against the whole school ethos of 'don't learn things in parrot fashion' etc.

I get that this isn't a major issue, but DS was very upset. DH thinks I'm being ridiculous and this is a normal way to teach. Opinions?

They need to learn their tables. If they don't, maths is going to be so much harder for them. Are you teaching them at home?

The school I moved my children had a Wall of Fame in the classroom... and also a Wall of Shame.

As a teacher, I take on loads of ideas from all around the place. That one never caught on with me. The same as the Brownie pack meeting where all those who didn't go to to Remembrance Day Parade for whatever reason got a boo and thumbs down from the others.

Mine all have personal targets for tables but they are not up on the wall!

For those who want to practise for the times tables check in Y4, there's quite a good free version on Mathsframe. You can also change the time limit (6s in test) and the tables set to provide the right challenge. My Y4s who can get 25/25 in 6 secs? Great, do it in 5/4/3. Immediacy is so helpful moving on in maths.

I had this at a similar age, me and my mum were talking about it at the weekend, it absolutely traumatised me, and I never recovered my confidence in my ability to do maths. I'm not the snowflake type, but it really did leave its mark. Speak to the teacher about it, it's out of order.

Another vote for Times table rock stars.

I agree with the teacher. I teach yr 2 and also do this. It is great for encouraging them to learn outside of school and they are competitive about getting to the top of the tables.

One size doesn’t fit all!!
Some will thrive while others will take a massive confidence hit that may never recover. I hope a good teacher would be able to see which children need a different approach

I've been told that Ofsted like to see such things on the wall and for students to know exactly what level they are, what they're working towards and how to get it, because it makes the kids engage with their learning. In an inspection, the kids pulled out by the inspectors are expected to be able to tell them exactly that.

The result is tables posted up in every classroom showing the baselines, results from each data drop, targets for the end of the year and end of Keystage. Not in a ranking, just alphabetical order and the numbers/levels. That it's nothing to be embarrassed by, that kid has started from a higher level, but has a higher target to reach, etc, etc - and the so called super smart kid might very well be at a higher level at the beginning, but if they haven't moved from level 3+ in the year, they've not achieved as much as the lower level kid who has managed to get up from 2- to 3 in the time.

Personally I think it's shit. I didn't need to know I was top of the class because the sarcastic comments if I answered a question made it pretty clear and if you're academically thick as mince, you know it damn well without having it up on the wall for others to point out your place

But then again, until somebody explained to me that registers were in alphabetical order based upon the sex and surname of the children, I was always disappointed that my name wasn't the first called in the morning and in the last few rows of lists. If they'd been done on the basis of ability, I'd have been at the top - and it's not as if I could do anything about my name, either. Except if it were based upon rapid fire times tables tests. I had been lazy and just memorised a mental image of the column of numbers (8, 16, 24, 32, 40, etc) because I'd far rather be doing something like music or art. Didn't affect my maths skills in the long run, seeing as I have taught the subject and can answer rapidfire without ever having to sit and learn them by rote. [shrug]

Anyhow, the teacher has probably been told they have to do it. It's not about singling anyone out or embarrassing them.

I've been told that Ofsted like to see such things on the wall and for students to know exactly what level they are

Nope. Ofsted don’t care whether you do this or whether the kids can parrot levels.
“There is no expectation about how primary schools should carry out assessment or record pupils’ achievements in any subject, including foundation subjects.”
www.gov.uk/government/publications/school-inspection-handbook-from-september-2015/ofsted-inspections-mythbusting

It is pointless teaching kids to parrot times tables.
I remember from primary school some of the thick ones learnt to do it.
I never did, but I learned to use logic and mathematical rules and passed O Levels maths with a high grade.

“It is pointless teaching kids to parrot times tables.”

It may be pointless for people with mathematical brains. But for people like my dad, it was an absolute godsend. Once she knew her tables “parrot fashion” she could actually concentrate on the maths bit, rather than worry about what 8x12 was and probably getting it wrong.

I agree with the teacher. I teach yr 2 and also do this. It is great for encouraging them to learn outside of school and they are competitive about getting to the top of the tables

It really upsets me that people like you are teachers. Has it never occurred to you that not all children have the same personality type as you? Do you not realise that some children will just be utterly demoralised by realising they will never get to the top, learn that they are 'shit at maths' and just stop trying? Competition against others is only motivating for (a) people who are motivated by competition and (b) see themselves as having a reasonable chance of winning.
Competing against others in things I know I am bad at does not motivate me to try. Especially when I am publicly humiliated by having my shiteness displayed to my peers. Unsurprisingly, it just makes me give up and put my efforts into something else.

Imagine if you were just not as good or popular teacher as your peers, despite your best efforts. How would you like to have your ranking against your peers displayed everyday for your colleagues, pupils and their parents to see?

It really isn’t pointless teaching kids to parrot times tables. If they know their times tables it makes a lot of areas of maths a hell of a lot easier.

Working out times tables isn’t as good because if you have to work out 78=56 by doing 77=49 then adding 7 every time (as suggested upthread), it means you don’t automatically recognise 56 as being in the 7 times table. This will bugger up attempts to do division, simplify fractions and ratios, factorise algebraic expressions, solve quadratics and so on.

Kids who are good at maths might get away with it (hence the ‘I don’t know my tables and I’ve got a degree in maths’ posters being unhelpful rolemodels). Ones who aren’t naturally good at maths will really struggle without that foundational knowledge.

@Horsemenoftheaclopalypse totally agree, this whole "no losers in life" is just bollox

It is pointless teaching kids to parrot times tables. I remember from primary school some of the thick ones learnt to do it.I never did, but I learned to use logic and mathematical rules and passed O Levels maths with a high grade. Well done you

No, it's not pointless to teach rote learning of times tables. For some children, it's the only way they remember.

Do you not realise that some children will just be utterly demoralised by realising they will never get to the top

Same with sports days
And X school has talent
And dancing competition
And spelling tests

Personally I feel the kids know where they are in the class it doesn’t need to be displayed - same as the top kids know it

“just be utterly demoralised by realising they will never get to the top, learn that they are 'shit at maths' and just stop trying?”
My dd was “shit at maths”. Learning her tables a) gave her confidence and b) gave her a tool that meant that she could and did succeed at maths in a way that she never thought she could.

Greentulips, I think that is my point. It doesn't need to be displayed. Just like none of us would need to be motivated at work by having our annual appraisal emailed around all our colleagues, or displayed at the tea station.
I don't agree with forcing children into competitions they don't want to partake in. Let them choose to compete in the stuff they have a chance at, not the stuff they don't. That's teh way to learn how to deal with failure. You can learn how to deal wtih failure in your own goals, set for your own reasons. We all have to learn that. You don't need to an exercise in public humiliation because you can't meet a target set by bureuacrats on behalf of politicians who want easy to count wins to sell to the electorate.

Bertrand - I am not arguing that children don't need to learn times tables....

Op what is your child's processing like generally. My daughter is super bright but her processing is slower than her general iq and it slowed down this bit of learning. She got there in the end it just took longer.

I don’t think it’s a good idea in the normal run of things to put up scores but when it’s a specific thing that any NT- and many non NT -child could do I think a bit of competition does no harm.

Ds is in year 4 and has learning difficulties linked to his autism.

He has always struggled with maths especially multiplication. Until his school signed up to times table rockstars this year and he now knows all of his tables with instant recall and his general maths work has also improved as a result.

I think as long as the charts have personalised targets for moving up then it can be a good way to motivate children to learn what is a useful skill

Betrand, except that there are posters on this thread who said this method did do them harm at school.

Competitive sports at school just encouraged me to think I was bad at activity. It was only when I left school and a friend asked me to chum her to an aerobics class (which I realise ages me...) that I realised I did like being active after all. But I could have very easily learnt that being active just ain't my thing after the experience at school.
My son, who is only five, and, like me, is small and slight, is already starting to internalise the message that he is 'bad' at running and sport at his ultra competitive school.

sittingonthetallseat You might not display the details of an appraisal but many workplaces use performance measures to benchmark achievement. Certainly I expect my managers to consider and share performance data with their teams. I share our regional performance data with them and compare it to other regions so we understand how we are doing. It’s not punitive, it’s not demotivating, it’s opportunity to celebrate high performance/ achievement.

Academic achievement is linked closely to increased confidence and increased motivation.