to think this is a crappy way to teach?

[swishyinhersatinandtat]

Just had DS9 come down from bed in floods of tears.

Turns out at school - he's in year 4 - there's a 'times tables challenge' - kids are tested on rapid recall of tables over a 3 minutes. According to how many get right they move up levels - bronze, silver, gold etc. This is on a board at the front of the class for all to see. He and two other kids are at the bottom.

It surprises me a bit as - please don't think I'm boasting - he's always been academically very strong at maths - lots of extension work in lower years, shining reports blah blah. That's not what concerns me though. What I don't like is displaying names like this - surely some kids are going to struggle more than others? Why display their names? Aptitude at certain things is so different to moving names up and down a behaviour chart. Also this seems to go against the whole school ethos of 'don't learn things in parrot fashion' etc.

I get that this isn't a major issue, but DS was very upset. DH thinks I'm being ridiculous and this is a normal way to teach. Opinions?

In the long term and for depth of understanding it may benefit your son that he knows how to quickly calculate times tables, as when children literally only know them by rote they sometimes struggle with derived number facts or expanding on a sum, eg 20 x 40, when they would know 2 x 4. That said, your son does need to know them by heart and I’m sure he won’t find it tricky.
I don’t like when schools do spelling bees or times tables competitions as I do feel it’s not nice for the less academic children, but I think I may be being over sensitive as they usually seem non plussed! Also, when teaching I have realised that is usually an indicator of parental involvement/support who does well on their times tables or spellings, regardless of ability. Ok by upper KS2 children should be more independent doing such learning but it really helps if parents practice with them and help develop the habit.

Your kid hasn’t practised their tables, isn’t good enough at them and is upset that everyone else is better.

You need to consider carefully the impact on your child of what you do next:

1. Agree that this was something that was missed and work with your child to improve and see them move up the chart

2. Complain to the school and have the chart removed so that your child doesn’t have to see anymore that they need to practise their tables.

Whether the chart should have been there in the first place is now neither here nor there because it’s too late for that, your kid has seen their position. You either give them the opportunity to see themselves improve with practice, or not.

My child’s school used these in Y3.
There was no chart on the wall.
Kids aren’t stupid - everyone knew who was still in pink after a year, and who had run out of sheets and had a special one written for them by the teacher.

@phlebasconsidered has said exactly what I would say as a yr5/6 teacher. Their times tables are absolutely key to the maths taught in upper ks2. If they don’t know them, with the associated division facts, they come unstuck pretty quickly. I’m also pleased that the onus on this is now in yr4 rather than tagging it on to the ‘essential by the end of yr6’ list.

Personally, I don’t display a list of results in my class- these are in a chart in individual books.

You can recall up to 7 items from your working memory whereas your long term memory is practically infinite in storage capacity. Rote learning supports automaticity which moves facts from working to long term. This then frees up your working memory to actually work!

When I was in school and a child didn't know their tables like everyone else the parent made sure they did.

If you were bottom at something, you worked hard so that you weren't.

Parents used to support teachers instead of running in with complaints about the most ridiculous of things every single day.

GDPR?! In a classroom?!

Please take a step back and a long, hard look at yourselves. Most of you probably wonder why English schools aren't doing well. This is why. This.

I agree it’s important to know time tables automatically but think the idea of the list is terrible. Find it really surprising that some people thinks seeing your name at the bottom is likely to spur a child on- in occasional cases it might, but more often it will make a child feel demoralised and think ‘well I’m no good at maths’, which is appalling. Also even if everyone in the class was brilliant, they’d still need to me someone at the bottom which seems ridiculous.

I would have no problem with a chart like this. It’s not about ability in maths, every child needs to learn their tables by rote. Automatic and instant recall is sooo important for future maths learning.
Sorry but it’s a bit special snowflake to not want your child’s name displayed on there unless it’s at the top.

There will be a statutory times table test in year four next year. Children will have six seconds to answer each question, up to 12x12. Some schools are involved in the pilot this year, others like mine are thinking and trying out rewards/apps etc to see what will work when the test is introduced.

If you really want to blame someone, blame the government as these results will be used as another stick to beat schools with. Staff will come under more pressure and unfortunately this will drip down to the children they teach.

They're bringing in a new test in KS2 for times tables, they've started doing rapid testing in Y3 for this reason to prep our school. At least this is what I've been told, wonder if it's with that in mind?

At DS's school all the names are in alphabetical order - sometimes A-Z and other times Z-A, I've even seen M-Z and A-L from time to time so nothing is in achievement order which would seem like an unfair way to do it IMO.

When I was at school all the scores were posted for all to see - we even got exam results from long printouts put up on the wall. I knew I'd failed one exam immediately as a 'friend' shouted it out to me.

Yes, it is a crappy way to teach.

A child who is at the bottom of a times table chart will have strengths in other areas and will be praised/listed accordingly.

Also, if your children play things like TT Rockstar, the charts can be viewed online, so they're aware whether it's on a wall or not.

As a parent you need to help him, do 5 minute time tests everyday, he knows he is behind work with him to improve do next time he does better. He'll feel great. It isn't only the teacher's job to make sure he knows his times tables, we do quickfire sessions in the car when waiting or on long trips, times table snap, put the tables up in the door, talk about them.

I have a problem with
‘The only way to learn tables is by rote’

No it is not not for every child
I did this in class for years at home with my mum getting increasingly frustrated that I just wasn’t getting it. I never did, because rote isn’t the only way to learn tables. People who say there is only one way to learn anything need their heads wobbled. And to put their names up is cruel unless they do the same for reading, writing and everything else. I’m no snowflake but the bullying I endured at school would not have been helped with a method such as this.

My 8 year old can tell you his tables but he doesn’t know them due to the way he’s been taught at school so am now having a battle to re learn them the right way so he knows them instead of reciting them. Which might work for some kids but children like myself, who is dyslexic just don’t learn the same way as every other kid in the class.

I would’ve been the kid at the bottom of that list, would it have helped my already crap confidence? Unlikely. We aren’t all good at stuff & I bloody pracistised and did them at home every sodding night with parents who didn’t understand why I didn’t understand or why I didn’t learn the same as everyone else. So to say a CHILD hasn’t done enough is rubbish, if my child wasn’t getting something I was explaining or teaching I would be thinking of a different way we could do things to help.i eventually had a teacher like this in secondary school who taught me how to do maths a way I understood.

I'm absolutely fine with rote learning, but I think the competitive thing is highly overrated. All pedagogical research seems to show that collaborative learning actually works better and is more efficient.
It is very easy to give a student the idea that there is no point in trying as it is already clear that they are more stupid than anybody else. That is one area where visual reinforcement works very well indeed.

I'm a university teacher and I work very hard on avoiding pitting students against each other- not because I think they are precious snowflakes but because I want to get maximum results. 35 years of teaching experience has shown me that there are better ways. I believe in things that work.
(and yes, I have experience from schools too)

I'm a primary school teacher.
One of the most helpful skills for your child to learn is their times tables! Maths lessons become nothing short of laborious when they have not learned their tables!
Yes the children that are higher attaining in maths will still do well - but it still takes them twice as long as it should ( and a lot more effort).
Children learn the method for column multiplication in year three but get the answers wrong because they do no know their number facts! They get division wrong for the same reasons even though they know how to partition. Learning equivalent fractions and simplification is again much much harder if they haven't learned them!

I cannot stress enough how much more your child will get from his maths lessons if he can invest his time in practising methods, problem solving and reasoning instead of counting single lots of 8 or 6 or 3s on his bloody fingers. Children enjoy maths much more if they don't have keep counting constantly to work out answers. Some number facts just need to be learned.
Yes having their names up could be demotivating for some, but if they are learning them at home then they will quickly move up!!
I love teaching - it's my life. There's nothing like seeing children enjoying their learning and using new knowledge. Times table knowledge does that.

It depends on what it is and the child. Some children learn better if they are being competitive, some don't.

Don’t parents play times tables cds (assume now downloads) in the car anymore? I think virtually all my children’s friends knew their tables by the time they moved from infants to juniors by hearing tables sung everyday and singing along.

I think that’s a bit shitty. Someone has to be at the bottom, so why display it like it’s a bad thing?

It is GDPR because parents are nosey and look or get told by their children who is bottom

My son was always bottom of the behaviour chart (ASD) despite not being able to control his behaviour and I witnessed a parent peering in through the classroom window to check where MY SON was that day and then joyfully announcing to the assembled group of parents that ‘Mini Unicorn was bottom AGAIN’

I spoke to the head and the chart was moved. So said parent used to interrogate her son every afternoon instead

I am against anything that puts children in direct ‘competition’ and advertises it - esp behaviour or academic achievement.

GDPR? What absolute ill informed twaddle! Which part of the regulation do people believe is breached? Why do people quote regulations they don’t fully understand?

Of course it’s not a data breach. It’s a list of first names put on a board for a reasonable purpose. Just as names put on boards with smiley/sad faces is a behaviour management tool.

I'm not sure needing to answer what 9x7 is in a split second is wildly important in the grand scheme of things though Most things we learn at school aren't wildly important tbh. The whole school system can make children feel like they are worth no more than the A or the D they get on results day. It is our job as parents to try and make sure they don't feel like that. So this would be a good time to explain to your son that he might not have done well at this, but he excels in X instead. We all have things we are better at.

So this would be a good time to explain to your son that he might not have done well at this, but he excels in X instead. We all have things we are better at

Absolutely this.

I'm not sure needing to answer what 9x7 is in a split second is wildly important in the grand scheme of things though
It's quite important in everyday life actually. When you are making a quick estimate. A lot more important than knowing what a fronted adverbial is