to think this is a crappy way to teach?

[swishyinhersatinandtat]

Just had DS9 come down from bed in floods of tears.

Turns out at school - he's in year 4 - there's a 'times tables challenge' - kids are tested on rapid recall of tables over a 3 minutes. According to how many get right they move up levels - bronze, silver, gold etc. This is on a board at the front of the class for all to see. He and two other kids are at the bottom.

It surprises me a bit as - please don't think I'm boasting - he's always been academically very strong at maths - lots of extension work in lower years, shining reports blah blah. That's not what concerns me though. What I don't like is displaying names like this - surely some kids are going to struggle more than others? Why display their names? Aptitude at certain things is so different to moving names up and down a behaviour chart. Also this seems to go against the whole school ethos of 'don't learn things in parrot fashion' etc.

I get that this isn't a major issue, but DS was very upset. DH thinks I'm being ridiculous and this is a normal way to teach. Opinions?

I'm not keen on displays that rank children's scores, but I think that the only reason you son is upset is that he is a bright boy who is used to finding everything easy and it's been a shock to realise that he is at the bottom of his class for something.

I teach year 3 and we put a lot of emphasis on learning tables. Rapid recall makes the rest of maths so much easier for children. Recently, I've been teaching multiplication and division of 2 digit numbers by single digit numbers eg 45 x 9.

If a child has instant recall of 9 x 5 and 9 x 4 then they can use their brain power to think about place value, carrying tens etc and solve the calculation. If they are having to use up brain power by counting on their fingers to work out those simple tables then they end up with cognitive overload and find the calculation difficult.

Your son just needs to pull his finger out and learn his tables and you need to help him.

“Your kid hasn’t practised their tables, isn’t good enough at them and is upset that everyone else is better.

You need to consider carefully the impact on your child of what you do next:

1. Agree that this was something that was missed and work with your child to improve and see them move up the chart

2. Complain to the school and have the chart removed so that your child doesn’t have to see anymore that they need to practise their tables.

Whether the chart should have been there in the first place is now neither here nor there because it’s too late for that, your kid has seen their position. You either give them the opportunity to see themselves improve with practice, or not.”

I agree with this fromnoblegiraffe
As maths advances in the later primary years and beyond there seems to be an increase in exectutive functioning demand as questions become multi-task and also a higher demand on working memory. Your DS obviously has ability but having to stop to work out basic calculations will hold him back.

If he was my child I’d say that being faster will help him and that, as a child with an aptitude for numbers, getting faster shouldn’t be too tricky. Then I’d help him. My long-term outcome would be helping him to learn rather than admonishing the teacher. A little bit of practise will likely go a long way and he’ll be proud

*executive functioning, obviously.

This is a normal way of recording data. Who says something like this information ought to be kept confidential?!

I teach Y4 and it's school.policy for all KS2 children to do a minimum of 10 minutes online times tables each day, or complete a daily sheet if they have on online access. My class are terrific. They can rattle off their times tables, but many have no idea how to apply them!

We had a teacher do this with the added stress of having class mates asking the rapid fire questions.
Our youngest went into the class being confident with her times tables and math to doubting herself. It has caused major issues for her.
We spoke to the teacher numberous times but she just didn’t get it.
I hope you have more luck- we had this teacher for two years and I wish I’d moved my DD to a different school.

This is an excellent learning opportunity for him. He needs to learn what is and isn’t important and not to be too proud. Better to learn this now than at university like most people.

@derxa but it takes one second to work out so why spend five minutes wrote learning it?

I would teach my kids to work out 45 x 9 by working out 45 x 10 then subtracting 45. Much easier!

Our schools write the names of pupils who have been “naughty” at playtimes on the board in the class and a big board in the hall at lunch.

It makes me want to cry. My younger boy has been on it for being “too excited” and “running too fast at tig” so now he’s banned from playing tig (as is the whole class) and he has his name underlined all week.

He sobs over it.

It’s unbelievably cruel and outdated.

@derxa but it takes one second to work out so why spend five minutes wrote learning it? Why bother learning the alphabet?

You need to speak to the school.
Growing up I was similar to your son - I excelled at maths but no matter what I couldn't do speed multiplication tests. It caused me so much anxiety.

My parents went into the school and pointed out to the teacher that whilst learning tables by rote is beneficial for speed - it's like spelling in English- it doesn't show understanding of any mathematical process.
Learning to spell words doesn't mean that you know how to use them.
Speed multiplication tests don't do anything.
My teachers actually listened and I grew to love maths again.
Now I have a maths degree and teach - I encourage my students to learn times tables - but get that some just can't do it.
For them I teach techniques to get round it - make sure he knows his square numbers and can subtract or add from there.
Eg 7x7=49 so 7x6= 42 and 7x8=56

I can do crazy shit with geometry and algebra - just still cannot do my 7 times table.

Jo Boaler who is a professor at Stanford has done some good research on this - her book 'mathematical mindsets' might be worth a read.

I was lucky that my parents stood up for me - you need to do the same for your boy.

I'm not sure needing to answer what 9x7 is in a split second is wildly important in the grand scheme of things

Recognising the relationship between numbers will greatly benefit him later in life

That’s said

Would you complain if he was at the top of the chart? Probably not.

In my school they were on a big board for the class to see, once “most” children mastered it we moved on. I didn’t and it held me back, I intend to remedy this when dc go through this

No wonder people don't like working! Does no one have any motivation these days?!?

Fucking hell I'd be working my arse off to be top of that chart, like I do at actual work, and then guess what?? I get rewarded for it!

I don't like this at all. Everyone learns at their own pace, not fair to make some kids feel inferior.

When I was at school, they always used to read out loud everyone's test scores from top to bottom. Humiliating for those at the bottom, but actually not great for those at the top either as they got bullied for being 'swots'. I was one of these kids, but used to deliberately not try as hard as I could so as to avoid being near the top.

I'd speak to the school, it's like a throwback to 80s schooling.

Our primary doesn't in any way compare childrens ability for them all to see, as school nowadays is much more based on each child's individual targets.

My cousins son has never really learnt his tables properly. My cousin spent time with him trying to get him to learn them by rote but it just never worked despite him being excellent at Maths. He knew most but it took him a little longer to work out some. He passed his GCSE Maths with grade 9 last year.

Encourage him to learn them as it will make school easier but it's wrong for a young child to be under so much stress from them.

But then I'm an arsehole to be honest

No wonder people don't like working! Does no one have any motivation these days?!?

It's nothing to do with not liking working or motivation. Some children will work very hard and still be near the bottom of a chart like this. For some, that is demotivating. The children that are doing very well can be rewarded in another way or even maybe put the 'top 3' names up but to put the children's names up from 'best' to 'worst' is just wrong IMO. It's much better to reward effort. And I'm in no way biased about this as both my kids are very academic.

Yabu

Rote learning has its uses. One of which is times tables.

I also think children should “fail more”
I manage a group of gen z (or whatever they are called) and it’s laughable at times.
one produced an epically amateurish PP deck when I told him it could not go to a client without edits as it wasn’t up to scratch (it wasn’t even all in the same font ffs) he cried.

I'm a primary teacher, I try not to display names unless it's in celebration of something.

Really worth him knowing his times tables though so I'd work on those - speed and accuracy of recall. Also link with division facts. I'd recommend Hit the Button - it's an app or a game on topmarks website and is fab for speedy tables.

I'm shocked that people don't place any value on knowing times tables quick fire. It makes so many other parts of Maths easier if you know them. Yes, you have to know what times tables actually are, the relationships between the numbers and how to apply it all. But for learning the actual number facts is really important and really, as boring as it is, rote learning is the best way of doing that.

I don't really have any problem with a chart on the wall either, I have done this (it was policy in my school that we all had to do it) and the kids didn't mind and most of them found it really motivating to put themselves up the chart.

I'd speak to the school, it's like a throwback to 80s schooling. It's the very opposite

I also think children should “fail more”

Children have individual targets and even the brightest don't reach them in the timescale set. You don't need to rank kids on a chart on the classroom wall.

I think primary school should be about making children feel confident and encouraging them to put in maximum effort.