to think this is a crappy way to teach?

[swishyinhersatinandtat]

Just had DS9 come down from bed in floods of tears.

Turns out at school - he's in year 4 - there's a 'times tables challenge' - kids are tested on rapid recall of tables over a 3 minutes. According to how many get right they move up levels - bronze, silver, gold etc. This is on a board at the front of the class for all to see. He and two other kids are at the bottom.

It surprises me a bit as - please don't think I'm boasting - he's always been academically very strong at maths - lots of extension work in lower years, shining reports blah blah. That's not what concerns me though. What I don't like is displaying names like this - surely some kids are going to struggle more than others? Why display their names? Aptitude at certain things is so different to moving names up and down a behaviour chart. Also this seems to go against the whole school ethos of 'don't learn things in parrot fashion' etc.

I get that this isn't a major issue, but DS was very upset. DH thinks I'm being ridiculous and this is a normal way to teach. Opinions?

In our school we've had to remove all surnames from displayed work, newsletters, internet posts etc. Visitors to the school are not allowed to know the children's surnames. There are no lists of pupils' names with surnames anywhere. Maybe that's just our interpretation of GDPR but we'd certainly get into trouble for doing this.

The thing is, I'm not great at Maths. I had to take my maths O level twice to pass, in 1978 at a GS!

My maths was good enough (or maybe my physics was!) to pass a technical HCP degree.

I can tell you 8x7 in an instant. Or any other table, to 12x.

If your good-at-maths child can learn a passage of prose, or a poem, they can learn their times tables.

I don't know what GDPR means, tho I guess it's something to do with data protection.

Has this all gone mad???

In what way will knowing your classmate, Harry Jones, isn't quite as fast as tables recollection as Imogen Smith - compromise anyone?

Seriously?? To what end?

Get a grip!

With GDPR, don’t you have to be able to argue that there is a necessity for displaying personal data? So for example, names with photos for allergies: necessary. However it is not a necessity to display publicly (parents eve/other pupils) individuals’ grades etc, so therefore not ok.

We had this last year i think so yr5. The levels were Marvel characters.

Don't raise it with the school, use it as a way to teach your son about strengths and weaknesses.

DD is terrible for being demoralised when she isn't immediately great at stuff. We use situations like this to point out that some things in life take effort. And as long as she is doing her best, it doesn't matter where she is compared to others.

My point being that lists of children shouldn't be displayed anywhere - let alone pitching them against each other. Times have changed. This type of practice was common in schools 20 years ago. Schools should now be very aware of the changes implemented by the new GDPR rules and nothing identifying children's full names should be displayed at all. Schools are often frequented by visitors and therefore if they are displaying names, they are vulnerable to flouting GDPR rules. Ridiculous as that sounds, unfortunately it is the case these days.

fevertree - we'll definitely try that. is it fun?!

Yes its fun.

Lots of schools S=start in Year 1 with the intention that they will know them all by the end of Year 2.

PinkAvocado yes, but it should be kept on the school database (Microsoft adhere to GDPR rules) and only accessible via a password. Or it can be displayed in a locked room with a keypad eg staffroom.

I remember doing that at school. I hated it.

But...a more nuanced view of ranking students...as a teacher of older children, I have put up an anonymized list of grades in the classroom so students could see how they were doing compared to their peers. It was encouraging for some students and a motivator for others.

When I was at primary school, our WEIGHTS were published on a chart on the classroom wall...I was very tall and consequently heaviest in the class. It was unbelievably humiliating.

I think it’s perfectly reasonable for a school to expect children to learn their tables. I think motivating them to do well by giving various awards is good and more effective if done publicly.
Exam results used to be posted on a notice lard. Children need to learn to deal with this very minor sort of competition without parents interfering and making it stressful.

I mean this very genuinely Op, but I'm wondering if it's the fact that your Ds is at the lower end of the chart that's really bothering you? If he was top of the chart, would you still think badly of the method?
A very close friend of mine had a high achieving dd, and didn't seem particularly bothered that the class results were public for all to see. Two years later, however, her second dc was struggling - it then became quite a big issue for her that the class results were publicised.
Sorry if I'm off the mark, and it's understandably human nature to be happy with open charts when our kids are doing well / hidden charts when our kids are lagging behind. You mentioned that your Ds has previously been a high achiever, were you keen to keep that under wraps? Or has the school changed its policy recently?

I'm just wondering how you'd have felt about the whole chart with names and rankings thing if he'd come home and told you he was top of the list or in the top five?

In that circumstance, would you have wondered about the kids who were at the bottom of the list and what detrimental effect it could have on them?

Or would you (probably like most parents) just have congratulated him and not even thought about the kids at the bottom of the list?

I think it does need raising with the school and I also think it would be great if one of the high achievers' parents raised it.

Crosspost JockTamsonsBairns I've been an age writing mine and didn't refresh the page so only saw yours after mine was posted.

We had this when I was in school. I didn't learn my tables by rote either and was pretty near the bottom most of the time. It didn't bother me for some reason, though. I was strong at math and went on to get a math degree- I hope your DS isn't put off by this.

I can see how it could encourage some children to try harder - that sort of thing is motivating for some and classes need to use a variety of techniques to cover all the students. I would have thought a Tables "Star Board" where names go up when they achieve well but that doesn't list all the ones who don't make it would do most of the good of a ranking system without causing children to lose interest the way a ranking system can. Glad you're going to raise the issue.

Be a rebel, OP.
Refuse to buy into the system, don’t get your DS to practise and tell him it doesn’t matter where he is on the charts. Otherwise the school will think that the method is effective, engaging parents and children in a drive to succeed and learn their tables. Don’t support it as a method, they’ll listen to your objections and point out that it worked on you.

The achievement chart does seem a bit much. However in my experience children who are good at maths are good at quick recall of times tables and are always first to learn times tables by rote. You would have hated my methods which included quick fire TT competitions.

I think motivating them to do well by giving various awards is good and more effective if done publicly

You may think that but you are wrong.

It's all very well to talk about motivating children, but what about the ones who are always going to be at the bottom of the lists due to learning difficulties? To them it's just yet another thing that shows them up as failing, and it's the very reverse of motivating.

I teach year 6 and every single year the thing that holds them back from expected is times tables. Without knowing them and the division facts you simply cannot score highly enough in the arithmetic paper.
I am glad the onus has been placed further down the school for once.
We do times tables every day. But I can't work magic- they simply have to be learnt by heart. Every single child can do it. Some of my lowest ability are the best at tables. It builds them up! My own ds is very poor at maths but he learnt his tables. We stuck post its everywhere and used car journeys as practice time.

I offer small prizes for each table tested by me at lunchtime. When they know all 12 and the division facts they get a special mention in assembly and a prize and certificate. Some children just don't want to learn them. When they've done a mock sats they are usually upset by their result on the arithmetic paper and this spurs some on. It's been in every newsletter, mentioned in every parents evening and sats evening. But I still get parents saying to me "Oh well, I don't really know mine. I never use them."

If your son wants to try, Hit the Button is great. MyMiniMaths also has some good stuff for free.

My dd would be near the top of the chart but every single week she is last in the races in PE, the last one picked for teams and can’t catch or throw at all well. It’s nice when her academic achievements are praised.

Excellent post yabbers

I’m not a fan of public shaming methods in schools at all but likely it will be a school wide policy and your complaint won’t change anything.
I see no difference in the children who are not the best at maths being shamed and the child with adhd in my dcs class being at the bottom of the behaviour chart every day because they can’t sit still and call out. Neither is the fault of the child. Though at least your child has a chance of moving up if he practices his tables at home.

I do think quick recall is important as well. Even if children are great at maths they are going to run out of time in tests if they are having to work out what others can recall straight away.
I also think chanting in order like we used to do is a waste of time. Kids will either learn them in order only (so have to mentally go through all the ones before to get their answer) or will just learn to add the same number again and again. This doesn’t help them answer 8x6 for eg quickly.