To think the only people who want 'Nn Deal' have no idea what this means?

[KennDodd]

And don't believe you if you tell them. Facts and laws just seem to be wafted away as irrelevant.

When was this idyll again?

mrs my point about adoption and abusive husbands was that one key reason for having this nuclear family only society was that supposed transgressions such as pregnancy out of wedlock were ruthlessly dealt with and that the stigma of being divorced kept women in abusive relationships.
You aren't going to return to nuclear families being the only acceptable norm without also returning to the consequences that kept women in check.
In addition nothing about Brexit is going to address these concerns of yours.
I would also note that the local catholic school where we lived had a substantial Polish contingent, they were Christian nuclear families. I think you would have had more in common with them than my British atheist family.

We’ve incentivised women to marry the government, let men off the hook and allowed them to neglect their moral and financial responsibilities to their children. It’s a social catastrophe.

Have we travelled back in time to the Victorian era or something.

There are some damn amazing women in mine and DHs family who despite all the forces against them defied all this and thrive despite not having a husband (for whatever reason)

I saw a study a couple of weeks back that stated that children in single parent houses were also defying this stereotype and doing better than children from some backgrounds who came from a nuclear family. I wish I could remember where I saw it.

My point being that this concept is a deeply flawed stereotype.

Have we travelled back in time to the Victorian era or something.

If we had, 1 in 60 houses in London would be a brothel. These Golden Ages are tricky!

Aren't they just. It's amazing how the reality defies what we are taught to believe

There never was a golden age. It's a myth that people come up with every now and then about how some mysterious "time before now" was better.
I'm in my 50s, the youngest of a brood. My parents were born in the 20s and 30s. Their parents were born in the 19th Century or early 20th Century. This kind of shit is trotted out every so often and the older you get, tbe more you realise it's nonsense. Or you hark back to your lovely childhood with no idea about how your parents did it and they aren't inclined to tell you how hard it was creating your lovely childhood.
Do any of you plan to tell your kids chapter and verse about all your worries?

www.heysigmund.com/unhappy-marriage-and-kids/
I was pretty sure there was research that showed DC do less well in families with unhappy marriages than with divorced families and there is. This is an easy to read article but has embedded research if you want it. The bottom line is that it it not better for kids to be brought up by parents who are unhappily married.

In addition nothing about Brexit is going to address these concerns of yours

Of course not. I never said Brexit would address them. I simply said I think we face huge societal problems.

Think it's revolving around 'the good ole days'

We’ve become selfish and self-obsessed. Old-fashioned notions of duty, responsibility and self-sacrifice have disappeared. The nuclear family with a mother and father is the best environment in which to raise children.

Is this part of your putting forward the Leave point of view MrsAriadne? Only this sort of cant usually comes from men who want women back in the kitchen doing all the self-sacrificing and dutiful responsible child rearing while they watch the footy with their mates and go off to ogle pg 3 girls and harass barmaids. It's not the sort of thing that would stir up sympathy for leavers from me.

That's Ok it's just a touch of time travel delirium shock
Well, if we're going to fantasize about the past and time travelling, might as well be off to watch a bit of Outlander (at least Jamie's hot!)

No, Dangermouse, of course it isn’t. Why would it be? Someone referenced a comment I made on another thread. Or maybe this one. I never said it was Brexit-related.

We’ve become selfish and self-obsessed. Old-fashioned notions of duty, responsibility and self-sacrifice have disappeared

From my own experience I believe it to be true. I know you disagree, fair enough.

Once more with feeling... when was this Golden Age?

In the good ole days I would have probably died giving birth to my first child. I wouldn't have studied or supported myself financially. My life would have been over either literally or at the very least socially at 19.
I want my daughters' lives to be every bit as valued as men's in all respect; true equality. The past never had that. In fact in many ways there's still much to be done but we've come a long way and we shouldn't be complacent for the sake of idealised sepia coloured memories.

Ariadne
You support Brexit
You believe in a version of family life that never existed
you think that housewives predated the 1950's
the three views are connected

I'm not saying it isn't true. I'm saying it was only ever true of women, and I've no doubt men want it back because it would be convenient for them to have women back under their thumbs (or more accurately back under their fists, legally) doing all the dirty work for no reward. I'm seeing a lot of evidence of a backlash against women and women's rights at the moment. Some of it does seem to be linked up to the same authoritarian people and ideas that are closely linked with Brexit.

You see, this is precisely what’s wrong with bleeding-heart liberals. Endlessly mocking and condescending and horrified by the prospect of differing opinions. They don’t debate the issue, mind you, like adults might. They just hurt insults like little children.

Absolutely right dangermouse.

See this article here about the connection and also how some women are conned by the far right:

www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjAs4L48IngAhWi3eAKHfBkCVMQzPwBegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fcommentisfree%2F2019%2Fjan%2F24%2Fwomen-far-right-gender-roles-radical-right-migrant-muslim&psig=AOvVaw2ZT0ETei2AE5-tE13WKXLg&ust=1548538326033268

Well, I for one don't mind being a 'bleeding heart liberal' as long as I keep my rights and those of my daughters intact.

Feminism will not go away quietly. We are not used to shutting up anymore.

Ariadne
Please explain why a two generation, two parent family (mum, dad, kids) which only existed in the dreams of house sellers
is better than the reality
(multi generational families where old folks looked after kids while able parent laboured)
over thousands of years and hundreds of countries
or where
child exchange (those who had too many children 'adopted them' to distant relatives without children) - again incredibly common over centuries and countries
or where
the legal parents and the genetic parents were often not the same

you have a view of families which has never been real
it has affected your view of many other real things

Give it another 30-50 years and we'll have people looking back at our time as the golden era, age of compassion and decency, morals etc. Full of austerity spirit and ingenuity, make-do, brexit patriotism. In the same way we now idolise the past as something we should aspire to return to rather than something we should build on and improve upon.

@Dangermouse

I respect your opinion, but I’d disagree that it was only ever true of women. Many men in my own family are decent, dutiful and self-sacrificing. My own DH for one, who quite literally starved himself to make sure he put food on his family’s table at one point. It does men throughout history an injustice to suggest that woman have the monopoly on those characteristics. I’m afraid we’d probably disagree where women’s rights are concerned as well! But at least we can disagree politely.

I do already look back on a golden age before the Tory EU referendum. Nobody ever talked about the EU, it just wasn't mentioned and didn't have people arguing with family and falling out with friends. I news and papers were filled with other things (although still plenty of anti immigrant hate in certain papers). Violence and murder in NI was largely a thing of the past not a threat in the future. Our EU passport gave us and our children opportunities across a whole continent and we weren't stocking up with reserves of food and basics, worrying about supply of medicines while the whole world laughed at us.

They're the days I wish we could go back to. Couldn't really care less if couples wanted to marry or not.