To think the only people who want 'Nn Deal' have no idea what this means?

[KennDodd]

And don't believe you if you tell them. Facts and laws just seem to be wafted away as irrelevant.

I have rarely posted on this type of thread. I think the referendum has been so divisive. And it doesn't suit us as a nationality. I wonder how it would have been if Scotland had gone for independence.

So what we are left with is some people lacking confidence in the economy. Which effects us all. Confidence means better debt.

I actually have some new found hope after two years in Yvette Cooper. I never thought I'd say that.

From the Telegraph:"Visitor numbers to the UK fell 5.3 per cent in 2018, according to the UNWTO. Not a disaster, you might think. But then consider the fact that every single other major travel destination in the world witnessed an increase in international arrivals, and the statistic starts to look slightly troubling."
The gist of the article is that Europeans don't see us as welcoming or appealing.
Given that we don't like them, perhaps this is no bad thing.

Same old Project Fear but ramped up a notch!
If we leave with No Deal we will:
Regain all our fishing areas, so our crustacean catch can go up, which we can sell to France as they will be desperate as they will have far less fishery areas.
Our farmers will become more productive as they will lose EU subsidies so they can produce what the UK really wants.
Our workers will enjoy higher wages as they will not be undercut by cheaper labour from Europe.
As immigrants leave there will be less pressure on schools and the NHS.
Less immigrants means more housing is available for our own people.
It is a Win Win for the UK, and an added bonus is any job vacancies can be filled by our own people!

WTF moby what is it with the anti immigrant rant? Are you a kipper?
First of all it's not that simple, second leaving the EU and ending FOM only addresses part of the problem as non EU immigration is dramatically going UP and more than making up for EU nationals leaving. Again net numbers are UP and no amount of brexit will change that.

Moby. I identify you as Nigel Farage and claim my ten pounds. If you're not Mr F, whose future depends on exploiting ignorance and fear exacerbated by fanning xenophobia, I can't see any explanation for your holding such views. The extreme lack of logic is concerning. I refer you to the interconnectedness of all things.

Seriously moby, cmon now, no one can be that ill informed, not at this late stage?

Regain all our fishing areas, so our crustacean catch can go up, which we can sell to France as they will be desperate as they will have far less fishery areas.
I think we in the UK will have to get used to eat more crustaceans and less cod.

Our farmers will become more productive as they will lose EU subsidies so they can produce what the UK really wants.
Look what happened in New Zealand when they removed subsidies.
Our workers will enjoy higher wages as they will not be undercut by cheaper labour from Europe
If you think immigration is the reason for the pay squeeze you're in for a shock.
As immigrants leave there will be less pressure on schools and the NHS.
Less immigrants means more housing is available for our own people.
Where will you put all the Brits now resident in the EU? I have said it before - the British press say there around 250,000 in Spain - the Spanish press says 900,000. Mainly elderly so not working and using the NHS heavily.

I really hope I am wrong though moby

there are no less immigrants.
just less from the eu/eea

France will have less fishery areas?

Umm have you seen the coast of France?

We won't be selling fish to France either, well not as much, because it will have a tariff.

The fishing thing is a great example of everyone assuming ceteris paribus, we will get the fishing waters "back" but will continue selling it to the EU. Won't happen.

Moby I can't work out which angle you're coming from on any given day..

Yes @mobyduck , I am already getting my head messed with watching the news (yay, for Her Madge, btw). You are a bit unclear as to your views.
That said, we are all in Fuknosia . Hope the passports look fab .

Moby is a Remainer. Just goading.

I thought Moby must be a remainer posting leaver twaddle tongue in cheek.

No deal will be just fine, teh people have spoken and have stuck it to the elites who never cared for themselves, only for their own globalist ideals

Finally teh ordinary people have risen, and through Trump and Brexit are laughing at the PPE Oxford types who have run the world.

Teh people know they are lying, they look at teh lies they have been given and know that they will be alright.

Excuse me for a moment. Aaaaargh. That's a bit better. Why is there no Edward Munch emoji?

Brexit is like religion, reason and logic is seen as a hindrance to a true believer. And like religion, there is no middle way- we can't half leave any more than someone can half believe in God.
My own country, Wales, voted out, even though it is awash with EU subsidies which will end with Brexit.
My mother, at the age of 88, voted for the first time in her life- out, even though the consequences of her vote will almost never be felt by her.
Scotland's fishermen, Devon farmers (indeed all farmers), Nissan Sunderland all voted out by about 70-30.
On the day of the Brexit result I was living in a chain inn (due to a fire).The majority of the staff were Hungarians, earning about£800 as waiting staff or chambermaids, etc.
The few British Staff there were delighted at the result. They did not care that there was a possibility the majority of the staff might leave, with catastrophic consequences for the viability of the hotel which provided them with a living.
My own view is that the root of it is unfounded xenophobia. Vote Leave invoked the idea that Turkey was about to join the EU and send 80 million immigrants to the UK.
The fact that this wasn't going to happen got lost in the blind panic.
Couple this with a nostalgia for the post-rationing 50s when Britain was starting to become prosperous ( and pubs were allowed to post signs in windows saying No Irish, No Blacks, No Travellers).
There are psychological studies showing when people have made an irrevocable decision, any later evidence that it was wrong just makes them more entrenched in their original opinion ( to protect their integrity).
Brexit is going to happen, the only hope is that it does less economic damage than predicted.
I just hope those regions that were most vociferously "out" get hit the hardest and first.

I can't help but agree wholeheartedly with you Moby. I feel utterly devastated at what's happening to our country and how we are perceived by the outside world.

Borisbogtrotter *We won't be selling fish to France either, well not as much, because it will have a tariff.

The fishing thing is a great example of everyone assuming ceteris paribus, we will get the fishing waters "back" but will continue selling it to the EU. Won't happen*

There was recent article in the Guardian, an interview with a Scottish fisherman who sells fresh shellfish to France (they need to arrive within 24 hours, he can only sell fresh fish as the big companies have frozen fish sewn up).
He has just invested nearly £1m in a new boat. He is hoping that Brexit will both allow the UK to regain it's territorial waters (previously ceded to France) and that the French fishermen (who will have lost the fishing grounds they have enjoyed for the last few decades) will allow him to continue selling fish seamlessly and quickly to France.
The French fishermen have already said no way!
He voted Out, like 70% of the local fishermen in his area.
People just don't think things through. If you send someone an email saying click on this link and get a free £1000 pounds (with a disclaimer in brackets saying "on the other hand you may just lose all your savings") a large proportion will quickly click on the link.

I really do despair. I recall watching assorted farmers and fishermen on tv celebrating after the result, completely oblivious to the fact that they had voted away their futures. Apparently ignorant of the extent to which their livelihoods were dependent on EU subsidy. A few weeks ago I watched a group of Welsh farmers on tv saying they hadn't realised the effect it would have on their future s and they want to change their minds. Dominic Cummings delivered 3million non voters to Vote Leave, courtesy of Facebook and Cambridge Analytica funded by, amongst others, Aaron Banks. These first time voters delivered due to an extensive campaign of persuasion appealing to their most basic beliefs, xenophobia, it's not fair, we won the war, gonna stick it to the Elite. It's the stuff of fiction and here we are. I don't think it's possible for people with such entrenched beliefs - of being hard done by, someone else has got what I should have, everything is someone else's fault - to confront reality and say 'we were wrong'. But God forbid we get.to meet them drunk with power.

No deal will be just fine, teh people have spoken and have stuck it to the elites who never cared for themselves, only for their own globalist ideals

Sadly the only people they stuck it to are themselves.

That's just project fear that teh PPE elites want you to believe like sheeple.

That's right Boris (or is it Борис?). I'll take a born billionaire and an investment banker who has never been elected over experts any time

Cruel and heartless for what... believing that the country has a better future, not tied to the EU, can make our own decisions thats not cruel and heartless...that is the remain ideology.

It limits the future of everyone. In particular younger people who may want to work abroad for a few months or a year.

We will still be tied to the EU, we have to be to trade with the EU, to fly planes in EU airspace, to allow ferries to dock.

What we want is to trade with who we want, not have to pay levy's to be in a group, to think on our own and have an identity.

There is nothing to stop the EU or anyone else imposing a levy or levies on trading.

It also depends on whether the places we trade with have products we want. There is no British manufacturer of pacemakers, so if you need one it has to be imported. Currently from Ireland or the Netherlands with some from the US.

NHS staff are trained by the manufacturers, partly in the hope that you will use their product. Now while there are some things common to all pacemakers each one has its own features and different pacemakers are implanted in different people to suit their life style.

Obviously a no deal will not stop the import of pacemakers from the US, but if the US manufacturer does do a pacemaker with a feature that is best for the patient you have to look elsewhere.

India now has a couple of pacemaker manufacturers. They may be excellent, they be less good than European ones. But has anyone been trained to program them?

Assuming the Indian manufacturers' do offer free training then it still involves NHS staff being away from their jobs for a few days.

Then, with using completely new products you just have to cross your fingers there isn't another Bjork–Shiley valve fiasco.

Oh and pacemakers are not implanted on their own, they need leads that connect the pacemaker to the actual heart.

This is one type of medical device, implanted every day. I have no idea how many other medical devices are also potentially effected by Brexit.

But apparently you know about this and it won't be a problem.

Trump is teh man of the people, as is Farage! They are both fixing things better than the PPE group could never do. People like Miwiband and Hameron never did anything good for us!

Boris are you channelling Claig from beyond the troll factory the grave?