To ask what's wrong with my son

[stressedmum0f3]

He is 4.5yr old.
Since July 2017 (when his sister started crawling) he has become obsessed with her and obsessed with being horrible to her.
I am crying as I write this so please be kind.

• he will put toys in front of her, wait until she goes to get it then snatch it away
• shut her hand in doors
• make her spit on stuff
• 5 toys that he got for Christmas he has broken (his reason, he wanted to)

And now his new thing he is hellbent on waking her up, at 4am this morning he picked up two toys clashed them together and said her name multiple times, then she woke up crying. When I went through to his room, he dived back into bed pretending to be asleep. I have a 7 month old now too and the behaviour is transferring onto her. (He will throw toys at her in her high chair) or he will bang toys off the floor to get her to look at him. If she does happen to look he will run away. And the other day he has started to pick the wall off I am exhausted, I feel like I'm doing something wrong as nobody in the history of the world seems to experience this. I don't think we are all ever in the same room for too long as I cannot cope. I don't know what to do anymore. Does anybody have any advice?

He gets home at 6.45, your ds’s bedtime is 7. 15 minutes to read and settle your ds for bed, while you settle dd in the other room?

About the classes and taking him out all day.

I had to do that with eldest when he was 3-4, while I was on maternity leave and my youngest was a baby He needed the routine of wake up, breakfast, get ready for (morning nursery, swimming, soft play, craft, library etc) and then we would go out and then home for lunch and then TV for an hour and then the park. If we had any period at home longer than an hour he would get this mischievous glint in his eye and his energy levels would go right up and he would run around, make deliberate mess (dumping toys out etc) break things. He would not play productively at home at all. He was so much easier to handle out of the house. Even reading books, I could never read a book to him at home but I could read a pile to him at the library!

I think it was a sibling rivalry issue in hindsight and he knew he had more of my attention when we were out (fortunately second baby was an angel and slept in the pram and sling while we were out and about).

Your ds' behaviour does sound quite extreme but I just thought I would mention that getting out and about is a good strategy for some energetic dc, especially if they are craving your attention

How does he have such sustained time to go and do these things to his sister, op? He went and dragged her out of bed then put toys in it so she couldn’t get in. That takes a few minutes surely. He needs to be being supervised much more closely. I appreciate you are probably feeding the baby at that point, so your DP needs to step up here. Your ds cannot be left for a second.

You say you’re 23? With 3 kids? That’s really hard. You’re young, and haven’t got support. What’s your relationship like with your own parents?

I think the first thing you need to focus on is environmental prevention. Make it physically impossible for him to go in and disturb his sister, so:

-move her cot into a different room/area that he cannot access - use baby gates and/or locks on the door so she can have quiet time to settle, this isn't the same as locking him away from you, but ensuring she can settle. ideally your husband will play with him while you put her to bed, or vice versa

-physically separate them at mealtimes so he cannot hurt her. to be honest i don't quite understand why you are so resistant to the high chair as it will probably help both of them, but a pp's suggestion of sitting round the blanket was good. sit in between them (keep him on reins if necessary to stop him getting at her), focus on rewarding both for sitting and eating quietly and calmly.

-child proof your house better so that he can't damage things you care about, any time out area needs to be devoid of ability to engage in distraction/attention seeking behaviour. if you continue to use the stairs just ignore him if he pulls the paper off for the time being, he won't do it if it isn't rewarding in some way to him.

-lock the front door so he can't run out, and use reins when you're outside so he can't run off. he earns his freedom by showing he doesn't need them. any misbehaviour, put the reins back on, explain mummy needs to keep you safe now so this is why we need reins.

-use playpens to separate him and sister with you in between, so you can interact with both, but they can't hurt each other.

You need to use his environment to help him make the right choices and set the right boundaries. wouldn't it be easier if instead of constantly having to grab him and prevent naughty things happening, he didn't have the option of naughty behaviour?

buy robust toys he can't easily break. if he breaks them, don't punish, just say whoops i guess toy is broken now. make it easier for him to make the right choices, where possible set his environment up so he only really has the option of doing things either that you want, or that you don't really mind (if he breaks his toys, they are his, so it doesn't really matter...he will learn himself that it's probably better to have unbroken toys)

i promise it will be much easier for you!

At the end of the day, to a child, any attention is attention, whether it's positive or negative.
It really sounds like he needs outside help though, and I can't imagine how difficult this is for you to deal with.
Make sure you're consistent in how you treat him, and have you noticed if his behaviour escalates when you ignore it?

Obviously, you can't ignore his behaviour when he's being violent, but have you tried ignoring his milder 'bad' behaviour, and trying to catch him being 'good' (even just not doing anything wrong) and then really praising and fussing the behaviour that you want to encourage,ie, when he's being good (or not misbehaving).

I end up having to use this method previously, and would praise them for just sitting quietly, or amusing themselves in a calm way. You spend a lot of time watching, and must try to catch them as soon as they're modelling the behaviour you want. It takes time, but it can work.

Not read whole thread yet, so sorry if I'm repeating PP's advice.

No no no, thanks but I've tried this. If I put her to bed first, then him he will go in and do whatever it takes to wake her up

Oh for goodness sake. How can he do this? Where are YOU and your DH when he is doing this?! He is 4, he should not have the freedom to wonder the house unsupervised and torment his little sister without someone stopping him. Honestly can you explain where his parents are when he is hurting his sister while she tries to sleep?

As for your DH, getting home at 6.30pm is not an excuse to check out of parenting. I assume he was involved in producing 3 children under 5.

I'm sorry it's taking such a toll on both you and DP, OP.

But try to keep reminding yourself you are making some good changes here. You won't see results after one night, but give it time. The important thing us you're trying to do what a best for them all. Perhaps if he starts to realise there is a new normal he might begin to feel more settled and calm and you will see a difference, but it will take time.

I too am taking off the gloves.

But first, you are very young- n0 idea you;d had 3 kids by age 23. My DD was just out of uni at that age.

Do you not have any extended family? No grandparents? Are you not able to ask for any help? No siblings nearby? Where is your mum?

It's not on to say 'reading bedtime stories etc' won't work for 'our family'.

Unless you change your mindset on reading to and talking to your son, your son will likely end up in a class for special needs children as his language skills will be so poor compared to others.

You are possibly condemning him to the educational scrap heap with your 'can't do' attitude.

He's 4 FFS!

You need to stop the notion that you can't change.

Your whole thread is about 'I can't do this, I've tried'.

So okay- stay as you are.

Because if you keep doing the same things YOU GET THE SAME RESULTS.

Your son needs boundaries and bucketfuls of LOVE.
You also need to start using your imagination a bit more, so you stay 1 step ahead of him; take things out of his reach if he might destroy them. You are the adult. It's not impossible to predict what he might do, so you take steps to prevent it, like putting books out of reach.

That doesn't mean you don't ever read to him.

Because if you keep doing the same things YOU GET THE SAME RESULTS.

Hell yes! I learnt this with mine.

I had one like that. Absolutely grim . Nothing wrong with him. He grew out of it ......... when he was about 22. Sorry.

"Where are his parents when he is doing this to his little sister"
I was just outside the room, it was one of few times I've tried them going to bed at the same time. Obviously I didn't let it carry on but I know what happened as I had filmed it.
No we have no other family, my mum can't handle him and his grandad doesn't really want to after the way he acted last time. It's just me and dp

I think you clearly need some support at the minute.

The HV should be sign posting what's locally available (though I had some who were utterly clueless and children centres were my source of info) but if they are not returning calls that's not helpful.

Would the nursury or other groups know about local services?

Try googling Sure Start centre near you (though many have closed and they were very variable IME how helpful they were) see if Home start can be helpful.

I think you’re doing all the right things - asking about parenting classes, up nursery hours, working with nursery for diagnosis, continuing with groups.

There were shit times with mine when I was really sick, DH has to be in work, and the kids were difficult and demanding – and it was anything to get through the day/week.

I remember breaking down emptying the dishwasher – so fed up of things going wrong for us, having no support, being ill of the time – we then had easiest few weeks we could easy meals, sleep as much as possible, more TV than we wanted, and for me going out to groups so I talked with other mothers – who I was lucky often had great advice or at very least it will get better. In our case exhaustion was making everything seem worse than it was.

Everything that posters are telling you is very similar advice, to what you will get from professionals.

SS will tell you to sagefeguard your children ie separate your ds if he is hurting the others, lock the front door if he is running out of it, reins on if he is running across roads etc.

CAMHS will tell you routine, boundaries etc ie such as sitting at the table to eat, so you can supervise and no one gets hurt. Bed time routines, bath, winding down etc.

Once and if your son gets a diagnosis, the above won’t change.

Backpack reins were useful as our hated reins or wrist straps - they also felt more grown up carrying a few of their own things or things for younger sibling.

He sounds a bit like my nephew where autism is suspected but not diagnosed yet. Does he 'do' emotions and is he able to separate literal from metaphorical speech?

I was just outside the room, it was one of few times I've tried them going to bed at the same time

So he managed to pull back curtains, hit her, slam the door, pull her out of bed and put her toys in the bed all while you were standing outside the room. Sound like it gets way too far before you step in OP.

There are clearly loads of things you could do to improve the situation, particularly for your daughters, but this thread is like talking to a brick wall. There is also a lot of ‘I tried that once and it didn’t work’. Try AGAIN. This child needs persistent work on his behaviour.

I'm knackered mentally, and I'm still trying to recover from an infection in my scar. Fuck it was only last month I needed a blood transfusion because I keep loosing masses amounts of blood.

My were often worse behaved when I was ill or stressed - my Mum said at that age they can be like lightning rods - picking up the surround stresses but unable to do anything with it but absorb it - the language and understanding isn’t there to process what’s upsetting them so they act up.

Best thing is to try and keep their existing routines – so going out to groups – and try and calm down their environment – which sucks when you’re not feeling well but as the adult it’s on you to manage the situation.

No the above was different nights of the same behaviour

He shouldn’t have unsupervised access to his sister until he can be trusted not to hurt her. Simple as.

My ds has asd he is now 14 diagnosed at 7.
He also has a medical condition which presented first at 15 months old.
As a consequence we have had professional help over the years.

The one thing that has stayed with me the whole time is the portage consultant telling me to start parenting properly. Yes it hurt, I felt embarrassed and offended at the time(ds only 2 then)

She told me parents are the biggest role model and teachers of their children.
She was and is right.
All the work she did with us was play and language based. I had to find time to do it not find excuses why I couldn't.
I will not lie we have faced some really hard and difficult times.

A child being diagnosed is just the beginning of an incredibly hard journey. I have had to learn that I don't always get it right. But I have to learn from those times and change my approach. Also with the changes it always gets worse before things improve.

My ds likes to be in control but I have to be the parent and be very consistent. He does get choices and control at times but at the right level. He knows good choices =good consequences and bad choices = bad consequences. That has taken a long time to learn. I also have to take into account his anxiety levels and the fact if he has a meltdown he is not able to make the right choices.
Believe me when I say he has phenomenal strength in a meltdown. Luckily it doesn't happen too often now. If I hadn't have put in the work I did he would be incredibly violent now. He used to hit, kick, punch and bit me or his sister.

You have had some excellent advice on here please listen and take action.
The only people who can change this is you and your husband.

Without wanting to be rude, are you saying that your parents- who, (as you are only 23) must only be in their 40s perhaps, or maybe 50-ish- say they want no contact with their grandson?

They have given up on him too? He doesn't see them?

Do they see any of your children?

I'm sorry but that is so sad and so depressing to think that ONE child has been labelled like this.

You are still not much more than a child yourself, your housing conditions are poor- too many of you in a tiny flat- and the whole thing is a mess.

Please start trying to make changes.

I've posted here as both a parent who went through this for years and I KNOW how tough it is, but I've also given you my professional experience.

I don't feel any of it has been of any use at all- because you aren't willing to change YOU.

They didn't say they want no contact but they find it very hard to take him out. They don't take out our dds either so it's not like they're excluding him.
I know you have jingling, it might not look like I've taken much on board but I've taken small steps. It's the most I can do atm. I've phoned the hv again, still no answering and I've left a message with their main team. I also contacted my old hv to see if there was anyway she could come out instead and she said no because she's no longer a signed to our area but I liked her the most, she knew the ins and outs. The new one doesn't.

Hi OP, Having read more posts i think that you need to take a step back, re-calibrate (breathe!) and go easy on yourself and the kids. Can you get any sort of a break? If you haven't already Perhaps putting in a consistent routine at home (use visuals to support understanding. Visuals also externalise the demands and may reduce the need for you to constantly be telling them what to do). Maybe reduce the going out to places you don't need to and which you find stressful and focus on nice activities at home.

It also sounds like you would benefit from talking to someone about all the things that you are doing well (I'm sure there are loads that you're just not conscious of). It's easy to focus on the things that are not going well. Can you get nursery to refer for a family support worker (or something similar?).

Some other things. I am not sure if these have been suggested already so apologies if they have :

• can you give your oldest 'jobs' to do that are within his skill set with lots of praise, to try and encourage positive interactions and increase his autonomy/ sense of control. Give him a sense that he is the oldest and can do things that the others can't yet.

-offer simple choices again to increase sense of control. Eg do you want to put your clothes on first or brush your teeth.

• have you tried reframing your language- instead of saying 'no', ' don't (ie negative language) focus on what you want him to do. This can be really tricky but it's good to be aware of the language we use and stop ourselves when we fall into this trap again.

-model the behaviour/ language that you want your dc to do. If you're feeling frustrated/ upset etc then name it "I am feeling frustrated because I have asked you 3 times to sit at the table". etc. Also name their feelings (in a "I'm wondering if you're upset because x is playing with that toy and you wanted to. How about we find something else to play with. Let's have a look" etc etc -is there a 123 magic course available in your area? If not you can order the books online. Some really easy techniques that are good at removing some of the more emotional responses that we use that often don't work.

• have you heard of video interaction guidance (vig). Again you could see if this is available in your local area. It is where I live and is excellent at supporting parents to foster more positive interactions with their children.

Also it's good to remember that all behaviour is communication. Try and put yourself in dc shoes. What do you think could he going on within the environment, with his siblings, with your interactions and then perhaps think you of ways to make those things better.

Good luck!

Thinking of you this morning and just wanted to check in. You seem to have lots of useful advice on here and even those not worded so kind could be taken as constructive in ways so I hope you're helped knowing so many people are here for you.

I also agree with PP about you getting a break to recharge. You often come back a far better parent after a short break and therefore it's in the childrens best interests too. You certainly deserve it.

OP you said the HV will be in the nursery meeting next week? Can’t you speak to her then?

Hungrypuffin can I pick your brains a pick more please?! have I got this right, SENCO’s can refer to CAMHS team for ASD assessments, but not Paeds? The reason I ask is I was told by school SENCO referral had to be made by my GP (to a specialist Paed, part of CDC)