To ask what's wrong with my son

[stressedmum0f3]

He is 4.5yr old.
Since July 2017 (when his sister started crawling) he has become obsessed with her and obsessed with being horrible to her.
I am crying as I write this so please be kind.

• he will put toys in front of her, wait until she goes to get it then snatch it away
• shut her hand in doors
• make her spit on stuff
• 5 toys that he got for Christmas he has broken (his reason, he wanted to)

And now his new thing he is hellbent on waking her up, at 4am this morning he picked up two toys clashed them together and said her name multiple times, then she woke up crying. When I went through to his room, he dived back into bed pretending to be asleep. I have a 7 month old now too and the behaviour is transferring onto her. (He will throw toys at her in her high chair) or he will bang toys off the floor to get her to look at him. If she does happen to look he will run away. And the other day he has started to pick the wall off I am exhausted, I feel like I'm doing something wrong as nobody in the history of the world seems to experience this. I don't think we are all ever in the same room for too long as I cannot cope. I don't know what to do anymore. Does anybody have any advice?

Hi op, been on mumsnet a few years and this is the first time I’ve responded to a post. I totally understand what you are going through. I have a 4 and 5 year old who even at this age cannot be left alone in a room together. Reading a lot of these replies i can see it is impossible for a parent of a typical child to even imagine what this is like. It’s like having that child mentioned above who was badly behaved after a birthday party and mcd’s for probably an hour - dealing with that 24/7. Things descend into such chaos that it is difficult to see even where to start with structure and routine when they fight against everything. My eldest was diagnosed with ASD at 3.5, nursery kept saying they seen no issues with her but she has recently started P1 where the teacher understands her a lot better and has settled a lot. My youngest has just turned 4 and is a complete whirlwind all the time. I am actually at the end of my rope with him and like you have tried so many techniques and he just does not care. Laughs at me when I am trying to talk to him, makes silly noises and just refuses to listen. He literally does not sit down from he wakes up. Cannot sit at the dinner table, maybe for the first 5 minutes he will sit sort of bouncing on his bum and then he’s up running around with the food. It got to the stage that it was talking around 2 hours just for dinner. One of the ASD behavioural specialists actually said to me but why is it so important for them to sit at the table, is it not more important that they are fed. He has been seen by behavioural specialists and they seem to think he has ADHD but they don’t diagnose that until they are 6 at the earliest here. I have done lots of the recommended parenting courses through my eldest having the ASD diagnosis and some things will work for your child and some won’t. There really isn’t much support even with a diagnosis but it really helped me understand my kids better and have that little bit more patience with them. It meant I no longer blame myself or my parenting for the way they are which lifted a load of worry/guilt off my shoulders. As I’ve said his nursery say he’s fine but they also said my daughter was fine even after diagnosis kept saying we can see nothing wrong with her. My son also bolts away or if I hold onto his arm he begins swinging or trying to climb up me etc so it’s almost impossible to take him anywhere other than soft play or a park. He is also pure muscle and strong as a bull. Lately I’ve been saying when out that mummy has a sore leg and could he help me walk over to the playpark etc and he seems to like being treated like an adult almost and helping me. When he gets in a frenzy though there is just no getting through to him, it’s like he’s on another planet and I know nothing is being taken in. I do definitely think he has ADHD and hopefully some help will come in the future but for now we are just muddling through each day and hoping for the best. The run up to Christmas was the worst ever and I think that was due to all the excitement and changes in routines etc at nursery. I think he’s settled a bit with being back to preschool but it’s still not great. I really hope you can find the strength to get through this and hopefully it will get easier. My health visitor was very good and got me referred with both of them to the ASD teams. I would say to start writing a list off all his behaviours to take with you to the appointments as by the time you get someone to listen you get emotional and it’s so hard to remember everything they do. PM me if you like and we can try to support each other xx

Sorry to bang on about mealtimes again as I'm sure you've had enough - but they're a really good opportunity to develop communication skills. Speech, language and social communication (so turn taking, sharing, please and thank you etc) - it all happens at dinner time.

Children pick up a lot of language from having consistent routines. They learn to tie the words they're hearing to things that are happening in their environment by experiencing the same things again and again.

When I start to struggle at home, I tend to write out a basic routine for the day and stick to that e.g. mealtimes, story time etc. Having that structure helps my DD know what's coming next (because it happens every day) and it also helps me to take control.

He sounds like he is desperate for attention OP. You sound like you really have your hands full ☹️ I definitely think his behaviour is all to do with being jealous of his siblings.

I’ve gotten as far as partway through page 18 without saying it, but I now have to, I agree with nothisispatrick and Ellisandra; what are you shrugging for? You are aware that YOU are going to have to change things that you are doing, right? Seems like you want to find someone or something to blame his behavior on and have a moan but you’re basically shrugging off great advice and suggestions with a can’t be bothered attitude.

OP I just wanted to say this, after reading this entire thread - I hear you, I have no useful advice but I hear your worries and your struggle and I'm thinking of you. You sound utterly wonderful and this is a hard, shitty piece of life you are going through. You're doing your damn best and you've tried everything. I don't think you're disregarding people's comments, I just think it's hard to be told by people who haven't experienced what you have to daily and aren't aware of everything you've tried that you've just missed something simple and it'll all be ok. It won't, this is probably the culmination of many things! I know it seems massive now and I just wanted to say I hear you, I'm supporting you and I know you'll get through it. You sound like a real tough cookie. You do need to talk to your DH and at the very least share the burden, and I hope you have a lot of friends and family you can rant to and cry with. If not, I'm here :) Wishing you well for this, it sounds an impossible task but you'll get there. Good luck with it

I mean this kindly but there is no way you can do three under 5s when they get to choose stuff. You decide. No eating on the floor, that's just going to end badly. At the table. You get down and fuss? No treat. Have something at the end of each meal and they need to stay up to get it. It's the only way honestly. I never eat on the sofa with mine and they're older now.

Another thing, you control access to toys. They come out when you say, they go away when you say. You need some way of achieving this, I had them in tubs on shelves which they couldn't reach.

Finally, this is going to sound weird but you need to engineer a time when you tell off your girls in front of him and make him the big sensible one he should be copying. This is the manipulation we all have to do as parents, you can't have one always being told off or you'll get into the state you're in and the dynamics need to change. If he picks the paint or carpet don't react with lots of emotion, just stay calm, "you must be feeling sad" etc etc. Make it so you cant be shocked but you will wait until he's calm and then quietly explain the consequence. Any fuss, explain to him that he must be very cross with himself because of his choices and ask him how he can make sure he doesn't have that consequence again. He is young, but the goal is to make his behaviour really difficult and painful for him and not for you - the consequence must hurt and be easy for you to manage. iPad time works here.

Nunya read the whole thread before commenting. OP has taken people’s suggestions on board. I’m disgusted by the minority of posters who just want to put the boot into a woman who is clearly under enormous strain and has posted asking for advice. Scolding her isn’t going to help.

OP I really hope that some of the suggestions on here have given you an idea of how to move forwards, and that you don’t feel quite so alone with it all. I really feel for you and all three of your children, it sounds very hard at the moment

So your son gets one and a half hours a day of alone time with you but that time is when you are taking him to his activities and nursery and then your DH gets home from work at 6pm, and your son goes to bed at 7pm, so only an hour a day with dad and that is time dad shares with the whole family?

Personality disorders are usually caused by a traumatic or dysfunctional childhood, inconsistent parents etc

Are you sure you are "a doctor who works in psychiatry"? I don't know anyone who works in psychiatry who would seriously try to argue the above nowadays. There is overwhelming evidence that genes have a huge impact on personality disorders (see twin studies etc.).

So your son gets one and a half hours a day of alone time with you but that time is when you are taking him to his activities and nursery and then your DH gets home from work at 6pm, and your son goes to bed at 7pm, so only an hour a day with dad and that is time dad shares with the whole family?

It sounds like more undivided time than most kids get. Most families do not have this thing where children sit there getting looong periods of intense 1-1 time with a parent who is purely engaged with interacting with the child and is not doing anything else at the time.

You connect with family members as you walk home or drive home from school or get ferried to an activity, have a chat while mum is putting dinner on or dad is chucking clothes in the washing machine etc.

This is normal.

It does not normally result in a child who does things like trying to slam doors on a sibling's hands.

As for the thing about kids not sitting at a table? OF course the OP should sit the kids at a table, it is a sensible and hygienic way to eat.

However, the idea that her son's behavior is "caused" by lack of table sitting, or the OP not being PERFECTLY consistent with discipline at all times, or the boy not getting hours of 1-1 time with parents, is just comic.

I am a normal parent and I am not perfectly consistent with things either, and while we do eat at a table I am sure we do other things that books on How To Be A Perfect Parent would criticize, and my kids don't get huge amounts of uninterrupted, undivided attention either. I.e., we are normal. But it doesn't cause a child to behave in such an extreme way.

Sorry to hear this OP. Have you looked into ASD at all? Sounds like he has a few traits. Get in touch with CAMHS too.

Any chance he’s exhausted? Two activities in the morning for 1.5 hours, then nursery (3 hours?) then a walk, and he’s been up in the night at 4am, woken for the day at 6am... I bet he’s tired.

How is he if you stick the TV on OP? If he will watch TV happily and not pester his sisters when it’s on then my suggestion would be to ditch one of the activities and let him watch TV instead for that time. If possible, cuddle him during that time. You’d get more of a rest too.

Also, would you consider stopping BF. I think you need to be less tired in order to deal with him and that’s the easiest way I can think of for you to be less tired. If DH does the baby’s night wakes for a while you could have more energy for dealing with DS.

Is DD1 at nursery yet? If not, when does she start?

He DOES care underneath, he’s just got so used to being in trouble he almost does it because it’s expected of him, it’s a vicious circle. I agree with praising him for every TINY bit of good behaviour, try to ignore the bad as much as possible unless it’s dangerous obviously. Tell him you know he’s a lovely boy underneath the behaviour. (even if you don’t feel that way at the moment...)

FWIW DD1 was an utter nightmare at this age. She was very, very tired (turned out she was actually awake for long spells in the night, just kept quiet). Age 6 so much better, I hope your DS goes the same way.

In response to not taking him to nursery, I would have said to him, if you continue to misbehave I will not take you to nursery, we will all turn around and go home.

This put the onus on him to behave but it is you who has made the final decision not him.

I would actually set up something for him that he likes going to but that you can easily pull out of (playground etc) then take a walk with both yourself and your DH, tell him your expectations on his behaviour before you leave to walk there, then if he misbehaves one of you can take him home and the other one can stay with your younger two so they don't miss out because of his behaviour. I find explaining expectations is very helpful and he is old enough to understand.

My daughter once ate a sandwich for tea while the rest of us ate the Pizza we had bought because she was warned to behave in the Pizza shop and didn't, I also missed out on things that i wanted to go to as well (kids activities but still a chance to talk to some adults lol) because she misbehaved while getting ready to go. It sucks but once they realise you mean what you say it does get easier.

I think you did the right thing by not taking him to nursery by the way, just next time make sure he knows it is your decision that he will not be going if he misbehaves.

I just read your dinner time update and that he dropped the puzzle on her head.

I feel that you really need to set expectations, so when you get home you say something like

'tonight I expect you to treat your sister/s kindly, if you hurt them or annoy them on purpose you wont be able to be able to be in the same room for the next 10 minutes, if you are kind and good to them tonight then we will do x/y/z tonight with just you before bed when Daddy gets home'

or

'Ok, it's tea time, while we have tea I expect you to sit in your chair, only touch your own food/bowl/plate/cutlery etc and to be kind to your sister, we are going to have ice cream for dessert and if you behave well then you can have some after tea, if you don't behave like I have asked you then I am afraid you wont be able to have any'.

Tell him what you expect before hand and tell him what he is working towards by behaving (and what he will miss out on if he doesn't behave). You are going to have some whopper tantrums, as long as he isn't hurting anyone or anything I would do my best to ignore them.

Just want to say thank you all for commenting. It's a lot to take on so I'm not even going to try and make a change over night as I realise that'll just be harder.
But to the pp who said is he tired, not a chance in hell. He has got endless amounts of energy, I don't know where he gets it from but he is constantly lively, constantly running about he never slows down and it's been like that since he could move. Everybody has remarked how much energy he has. Which is why I think upping his nursery hours would be a good start

Reading through all these comments..

It seems like often you are setting him up to fail with long term goals that are just too much for him..

For example..

Walk to Burger King, behave IN burger king, eat food properly, don't run off, sit down, walk home from burger king...

And all that with the excitement of knowing hes going to burger king on the way there/during, and then afterwards well hes going back to sharing your attention and being constantly in trouble...

Replace that with.. going for a walk, where we hold mummys hand and lets count how many cars/cats/whatever we see whilst we walk.... OH! Look we are at burger king, lets see if we can sit and eat a burger, ... mm nice burgers, what shall we count on the way home...... count stuff on the way home....

This example is entirely up to you to find what fits for YOU but can you see the difference, firstly you HAVENT told him you are going to burger king, just a walk, you HAVENT told him he has to be 'good' (a very vague concept) for a vaguely long period of time, you HAVE given him a task to do WITH you.. and so on.

Break stuff down, make it MUCH easier for him to get it right and FAR harder for him to make a mistake.

I wont waffle on, but whenever you think you are having a hard time, keep in mind... so is he.

Someone else mentioned, yes this behaviour is attention seeking - but attention seeking like this is bourne out of a lack of the appropriate attention, it isn't indicative of a 'bad' child (or adult for that matter), it simply 'is'.

OP just sending hugs. I think you have tried everything. I think the long posts giving you 'speeches' to recite to him, and telling you to do things you have clearly tried, are bloody exhausting. I think you need help from hv and as per bloody usual there are limited resources and you SHOULD have had help. I had a less severe but kinda similar issue. Boy did I get tired of people telling me it was me, of school saying she was fine. People with kids always think they 'get' this parenting thing but I have one child who responded to behaviour expectations and one who JUST DID NOT!!!

Can you go back to your gp and explain clearly that this is a child safety issue, that you cannot keep your daughters safe? You need and deserve help. This is NOT you but a little boy who may well not be neurotypical at all. People around you will NOT understand...people with similar struggles do, but most importantly...this is too bloody hard for you and is harming your daughters. Xxxx

The point is though, and I mean this kindly, is that as parents we need to respond to the fact that children are different and that while one may be angelic and easy going, others may not. No one is blaming the OP for her sons personality, but she needs to be able to adapt her parenting to deal with the lot she’s been given.

It’s not about being a good or bad parent or “getting it” vs not getting it, people are just trying to speak from their own experience of dealing with difficult children. It’s absoutelt right that some children don’t respond to the things that normally work, but it’s then our job as parents to do the best we can to adapt to that. Which the OP is clearly trying to do but clearly needs help with.

Holy hell OP, my heart goes out to you. You are still standing and haven't locked yourself in a room with your daughter and left your son to it. You are amazing.
You have managed to wade through all these replies of varying helpfulness and cluelessness and your head hasn't exploded.Nor have you descended into a flouncing ball of fury. For that alone you are a far better person than I would be, reading some of these comments.
I don't mean to offend any other you other posters, I think OP is holding up well.

I agree with the few posters who haven't commented on your parenting skills and have said that this behaviour is more than lack of structure and sibling jealousy. There is a serious, dangerous lack of empathy in your son and you are absolutely right in chasing additional support. Keep at it, and at it and at it. You'll eventually get somewhere- it's so frustrating in the meantime.

The only thing I noticed that no one has mentioned is diet. There are a few food additives , particularly colourings that send some children absolutely batty and out of control - not like dairy or nut allergies or a simple intolerance , but completely out of control - Red 40, Yellow 5 , Yellow 6 and Blue 1 are some of the main culprits - that cause behaviour very very similar to a lot of what you describe ( part from that maliciousness which sounds like sibling rivalry on steroids).

NHS guidelines list them as the following - which are different in terminology to the ones I listed above

E102 (tartrazine)
E104 (quinoline yellow)
E110 (sunset yellow FCF)
E122 (carmoisine)
E124 (ponceau 4R)
E129 (allura red)

Cordials, drinks, cereals, icy poles, lollies anything in those colours may be worth throwing out the window until you can find some formal solutions ( that don't involve high chairs - though I do think those posters have a valid point).

I wish you and a and much luck from Down under.

Morning, same shit again today. Picking dd toys up and throwing them about, one has even broke
As for a pp saying ask him if he likes dd he will just agree with me, he has no or very little understanding of what I'm saying. In some ways he looks like he has the same maturity as my dd. Especially when it comes to telling him off, he listens for 2 seconds but then doesn't care/forgets.
And in response about walking beside the pram I did say "but dad's not here, you're the one acting like such a big boy making me happy"
His reply "is grandad a big boy" 🤔
Parenting course may be the way to go, I will Google and see what I can find.

Because he has little and no understanding keep language limited and simple. 'No' when he is throwing things. Take things out of his hands and repeat 'no'. You need to see a speech therapist to get some symbol cards/pecs cards you can use with him to communicate your expectations and so your son can communicate. Please stress this to nursery especially as he is starting school in 6 months time. He will need support in school.
On a practical level can you put the toys in a tub with a lid? To minimise what he can access?
Can you get some toys out for him the night before. I believe his issues stem from his limited communication and he and you need help with this.

I wouldn’t expect him to be able to verbalise his feelings. He is too young.

Has your ds had his hearing checked ?

My son and daughter ( six and nine, both dyspraxic) still talk like that sometimes and definately did at your son’s age.

If he has any developmental delays (language or otherwise) all the more reason for simple strict routines and boundaries. I’d never survive a day/ morning/ hour without them. It’d constantly be chaos.

Do you have a morning routine? What happens each morning in your house?