To ask what's wrong with my son

[stressedmum0f3]

He is 4.5yr old.
Since July 2017 (when his sister started crawling) he has become obsessed with her and obsessed with being horrible to her.
I am crying as I write this so please be kind.

• he will put toys in front of her, wait until she goes to get it then snatch it away
• shut her hand in doors
• make her spit on stuff
• 5 toys that he got for Christmas he has broken (his reason, he wanted to)

And now his new thing he is hellbent on waking her up, at 4am this morning he picked up two toys clashed them together and said her name multiple times, then she woke up crying. When I went through to his room, he dived back into bed pretending to be asleep. I have a 7 month old now too and the behaviour is transferring onto her. (He will throw toys at her in her high chair) or he will bang toys off the floor to get her to look at him. If she does happen to look he will run away. And the other day he has started to pick the wall off I am exhausted, I feel like I'm doing something wrong as nobody in the history of the world seems to experience this. I don't think we are all ever in the same room for too long as I cannot cope. I don't know what to do anymore. Does anybody have any advice?

Kurrikurri -

Kurrikurri - I’m so sorry for all you’ve been through

But... I don’t think it’s normal parenting to shout ‘I can’t cope with this’ when one of your daughters violently attacks the other? Sounds like your parents weren’t very effective parents, and that may explain why your sister is the way she is. I think poor parenting and boundaries are more likely to be the cause than her being ‘inherently’ bad.

Personality disorders are usually caused by a traumatic or dysfunctional childhood, inconsistent parents etc

but even now I've made dinner and he is slapping her bowl away, or throwing her fork off the table. I genuinely don't know how to handle that?

Before you all sit down, you explain the behaviour you want from him and the consequence if he chooses not to follow what you have asked.
You get him to repeat it back to you (to reinforce it and make sure he understands).
If he doesn’t behave the way you have asked, remove him from the table (then carry on with the other two, make sure you are all having a ‘good time’).
Then when you’ve finished you sit him at the table to eat.
Afterwards you enforce whatever consequence it was (no iPad/TV). If he asks to watch TV, you remind him that he choose to behave poorly at dinner so no TV.

The next day before dinner, you do the same but with the reminder that he lost TV yesterday and it will happen again, etc.

You make dinner good fun so he wants to behave nicely so he gets to sit there with you all rather than wait on his own before he can come and eat and have no TV.

Just out of intesrest, what do you do when he slaps her bowl away,throws her fork etc?

Does he understand the behaviour that is expected from him? (I’m guessing this may be a problem if he’s always been allowed to eat where he wants to etc).

What do you expect the GP to do for you? They cant implement boundaries and routine for you, they cant teach you to set realistic consequences for bad behaviour and enforce them every tie. You seem to have a very laid back attitude to your daughters behaviour too. most families expect their children to eat at a table, regardless of 'what they want' by teaching your children that 'what they want' carries the day, you open the door to them thinking that 'what they want' is the most important thing... hence chaos.But you re not listening, so Im hiding this thread

So your poor DD doesn't want to sit at the table because she will be hurt by her brother if she does. Poor child! Is nowhere safe for her?

Your table must surely be big enough that they can sit opposite each other, so he can't get near her. Tell them both at the start that they will be eating dinner at the table, and can get a sticker if they sit nicely for you. Each time either of them gets up just pick them up and put them back on their chair. Do not let your son anywhere near your daughter. Remind him, and her, time and again of the rules.

That’s not true by the way. Austistic child and children with other neurological differences can often behave fine at nursery/school and then meltdown and display challenging behaviour at home. It’s a very common observation.

I agree.

But not always

Not always good outside of the home

Ime

I don't think so either soup, I think it's down to my parenting.

Please don't take that the wrong way though. We all have messed up with our parenting, some more than others, but it's usually solvable. More solvable than a SN so that is a positive - hopefully he won't have that additional hurdle in life.

It isn't going to be solved overnight though and it will be hard work. You all deserve the effort though!

I wasnt an avid watcher of Supernanny but I definitely saw her solve behaviour like your DS's with her firm boundaries and routines.

No I haven't soup! I genuinely realise now I've been lax about things and it's not right. If I ever get 5 minutes peace to speak to dp I will be telling him about this thread and seeing what we can do to better ourselves. Including him taking time off.
And to a pp no tbh, nowhere is safe for her. I've said it before, it's a rare occurance for us all to be together as a 5 because it just feels like war

OP🤦‍♀️ People are going about about your children eating at the table, nicely, together. Because that’s what is safe, acceptable. They will be expected to do this at school.
However you put in a negative reason why it won’t work to very suggestion:-

Dd wasn’t in a high chair since 6 months old- ummmm that’s when babies go into a high chair, when they are weening!
They will just get down- so you just put them back
He’ll trap her fingers- so sit with them or stand over them, sit them opposite each other.

You HAVE to put boundaries in place, and yes they will NOT happen over night! But repetition will reinforce what is acceptable behaviour.

A pp picked up what I thought was an excellent point (apologies I can’t remember your name pp), but you seem to have a skewed view of what is acceptable parenting. For example always allowing your children to walk around eating or eating off the floor (for most parents that’s a ‘fun’ picnic activity, not every meal!). Maybe a parenting course would be beneficial.

Thatwasfast - you may well be correct about my parents - but in fairness to them my eldest brother was profoundly disabled - so they had a lot to deal with. My mother didn;t scream on a regular basis, i remeberher doing it because it frightened me, she said she was going to run away - i imagine she;d reached the end of her tether with my sister.
With the personality disorder -again there may be some truth in what you say, although I think it migth also be a bit more complaex than that. i can quite see that my sister didn;t grow up in an environment that was a perect fit for her personality. being an only child would have been the perfectenvironment for her, She wanted 100% of the attention. I my parents were speaking to me when she came into the room, she would kick off, sometimes harming me, sometimes attacking my helpless brother. She continued to attack us both into her adulthood.

I wonder if she had been an only child whether she would have turned out differently - I don't know, a big part of me suspects not, but I may be wrong. I do believe part of her personality is genetic rather than environmental - she is very manipulative, and really quite dangerous.

However - I hope I'm self aware enough to realise that I'm obviously not coming from an unbiased position, and it is very emotive for me. It's something I've turned over in my mind for years - and still not come up with any answers ! But I don't want my story to hijack the OP's search for advice, there's lots of good sensible people here trying to help her. So I will bow out of commenting, but follow thread with interest.
Thank you for kind words

Really agree with the reminding about expectations before every situation. This really helped with DS. Expectations and consequences. Very specific simple expectations.
Move him away from DD at the table so he can’t reach her. If he grabs at her things, calmly say no. Say, If you do that again, you can’t eat with us. Give him a chance to behave. If he does it a third time, put him down from the table in the hall. Tell him he can join the table when he is ready to behave and not grab his sister’s things.

I often used the counting down method e.g. if DS got down from the table I would say sit back down and count down 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 - if it got to 1 there was a consequence.

I am not saying there aren’t some SEN issues here, there could be and you should definitely push for a referral, but you need to try changing things at home in the meantime and see what happens and if it makes a difference. Then that’s also something you can discuss at the assessment with the paediatrician.

What did you do when he dropped the puzzle on her head? How heavy is the puzzle? Do you need to get her checked? She’s just had a head injury.

Hi OP, I'm about halfway through the thread and the dinner but I'll read the rest. However the jealousy and probably v low self esteem is jumping out. He's being destructive and self destructive, I imagine, because he feels he's inadequate, bad etc. I think it has to be an ongoing, consistent effort to build up his positive feelings towards himself and sister. It sounds incredibly hard. My ds has been about halfway to where yours is but now there are a lot of good times now and a huge amount of love between them, which really is all I want to feel sure of and think the rest will hopefully ease off. I don't really sanction, try to remain calm and give the attention to younger DC, giving ds plenty of positive attention outside of these occasions. Personally I think my Dh over reacts to any bother between them and ds sees the reaction and attention. I do say we'll play if we're gentle and immediately finish if there's aggression. If he's aggressive and we're going somewhere I will warn him if I have the option to leave him at home and follow through ie I show him I won't allow the aggression but don't bring other situations into it and personality i think inside he's feeling pretty crap to be doing that. Janet Lansbury is v good and will make it seem less horrific. Aha parenting also good.

OP I am so sorry you are having such a hard time.

A lot of what you have said has resonated with me as I was the younger sibling of a child that obsessed over being close to me but would take every opportunity to physically hurt, upset or try and manipulate me into getting into trouble.
I appreciate it must be hard on your son but for the short term I think it's really important you prevent him from getting near and hurting your daughters- which I know you are trying to do so well done. For me, my parents were so overwhelmed by my sibling that although they would tell them off afterwards there were never any preventative measures put in place to stop something happening again, which has resulted in me having a serious lack of trust in people, severe anxiety and a phobia of falling or being asleep infront of or near anyone but my DH (yeah I was always woken up for no reason too). Don't let this happen to your girls.
In the long term, I would push and push for a GP referral and maybe some therapy. If this isn't sorted now it could become so much worse as your son grows older- I'm talking theft, vandalism, bullying antisocial behaviour and worse.

When I've asked my mum about it she's always told me how she tried to tell people what was going on and ask for help but nobody would believe her that a child could be so terrible or they would assume it was something that some basic parenting could fix. I'm telling you this because I want you to know that you are not alone and it's an extremely difficult situation to comprehend unless you've seen it for yourself.

I do agree, it will take some changes on your part, but you need specialist help with this as it's not a normal situation.

Well done for reaching out to so many people already. Don't give up.

OP I think you need to realise that hating having siblings really isn't that abnormal. I like the comparison of saying to your husband, 'hey DH, just so you are aware I'm going to have another husband and move them in...don't worry I'll still love you and have time for you'

Its a HUGE upheaval and some children react very VERY badly to it...especially if they have sensory issues that make hearing crying painful or overstimulating.

The problem is how your DS is expressing his lack of control, his anger, his possible hatred of his siblings.

For me his behaviour really smacks of trying to take back some control (sorry that phrase is now for ever polluted!). He does something he knows will cause his sister to come over to him, he exerts that control on her, then hurts her back for all the hurt she has done him.

Have you asked your DS if he hates his sister? Have you asked him if he likes hurting her?

I think parents can act from an assumption that a child MUST love their siblings really...when there is just no justification to love a competitor who has displaced you in your mothers affections. He is allowed to hate that, allowed to want to hurt someone who he feels is hurting him. He shouldn't be allowed to actually carry through though! That means giving him other things to do to release the rage and other ways of expressing his feelings.

OP do you have the funds to take him to a child psychologist?

I have RTFT and I think the overwhelming issue is you are making endless excuses as to why you can’t do what people are advising. You have received some excellent advice on here but shoot the majority of it down. How can anyone help you if you won’t listen? You have been told by countless posters (including myself) to contact your health visitor but I haven’t read you mention doing that. You have ‘emailed social services’ but why not call? Or just call the health visitor... it will be a five minute phone call at most and she could seriously help your family. I remember my midwife giving me lots of info, including different groups and courses you could attend and one was a parenting course so that could be another option. But again, you could ask your HV and I’m sure she’d be happy to help.

I can’t understand why you allow the toddler to eat on the floor. I’m sure your seven month old will be eating some bits and bats too so both DD’s should be in a high chair. I didn’t have mine in an actual high chair at two but I had them strapped onto a booster high chair type seat on the dining chair. They should be sitting at the table and the reason this is so important is it helps set routine which gives them structure and stability.

It isn’t too late to change, your DS is only four but you should listen to advice instead of incessantly rejecting it.

Oh and I second PP’s that have suggested taking it back to the basics and actually just asking DS why he feels the way he does towards DD. Not in an angry frustrated manner, just sit with him on his own some time and ask calmly why he feels the way he does.

I did phone the hv and I already said so. She didn't answer. I've tried 11 times.
I did want to phone ss as I get quite flustered talking on the phone and over email I can get my concerns down and get help faster possibly as I'm out lining the most extreme points. So no I have not ignored it.
I've asked him but I don't get anything helpful from them for example "is it nice to hurt your sister"
"No but she said hi to grandad"
Even earlier I was praising him for walking so nice next to pram and he said "dad doesn't walk next to the pram" he goes a bit offcourse but I think that's due to not having the understanding of what I'm saying

OP I think it's time to leave this thread - I don't think you're going to get any more advice at this point that hasn't been said but you are going to get a roasting which isn't helpful under the circumstances.

The only thing I've seen you say no to is eating at the table. There is an appointment set up with HV and nursery, an appointment has been made with the gp, you're going to talk to your partner about being clear on boundaries. You have taken lots on board which is great but not many of the posters on here are experts in child behaviour and I suspect not many of us have experience in the extreme behaviour your son displays.

It very much sounds like he has communication difficulties. Can he use full sentences, do you and others understand what he is asking? If no then he will be frustrated. This does not excuse the behaviour and as everyone has said, clearer boundaries are necessary whatever additional need he may or may not have. Has he had a referral for speech therapy? Google some techniques you can use at home in the meantime. My friend's non verbal son benefitted hugely from a folder with pictures of things he could point at. Is there anything he likes, a song or a nursery rhyme, singing the alphabet? Something you can use when you see the behaviour beginning to calm him down before it gets to the stage of hitting and throwing. If you do nothing else in next couple of days, observe him. Make notes, identify triggers and warning signs so you can start to anticipate and intervene so that every small situation doesn't have to escalate

OP, well done for still listening and sticking with us. People really are trying to help you and not being mean.

Consequences need to be shown to DS, so when he picks up her bowl or fork, you say no, put that back and if you touch it again you will go into Time Out. Then if he does it again, then remove him from the situation.

It's not going to be easy, but you just need to be repetative and consistent with everything that you do. It's easier not to, but of course that is when they get the better of you.

oP

the question 'is it nice to hurt your sister' is totally loaded though!

He knows he shouldn't hurt his sister, he knows it isn't nice!

If you want to get through to understand what he is thinking you have to let him know that whatever he is thinking is okay to talk about.

Ask open non-judgemental questions like 'how do you feel about DD?' How do you feel when DD sits at the table?' 'How do you feel when the baby cries?'

'How did you feel after you threw the bowl?'

'How do you feel when you are in time out?'

And DONT judge the replies....don't correct him, and absolutely DO NOT TELL HIM WHAT TO FEEL.

Nobody can change the way they feel, least of all a 4 yo.

It possible there is something deeply wrong with him, but its also possible he is just reacting to being told 100 times a day that he shouldn't feel the way he does, that he is a bad boy, that a good boy would love his sister. That he is therefore worthless.

Like CherryPavlova. I too thought- put that child at the table, she doesn't decide she'd like to sit on the floor and eat her cereal there.
OP I feel very sorry for you and hope you get it sorted asap.
I would be a stricter parent though than you.