To ask what's wrong with my son

[stressedmum0f3]

He is 4.5yr old.
Since July 2017 (when his sister started crawling) he has become obsessed with her and obsessed with being horrible to her.
I am crying as I write this so please be kind.

• he will put toys in front of her, wait until she goes to get it then snatch it away
• shut her hand in doors
• make her spit on stuff
• 5 toys that he got for Christmas he has broken (his reason, he wanted to)

And now his new thing he is hellbent on waking her up, at 4am this morning he picked up two toys clashed them together and said her name multiple times, then she woke up crying. When I went through to his room, he dived back into bed pretending to be asleep. I have a 7 month old now too and the behaviour is transferring onto her. (He will throw toys at her in her high chair) or he will bang toys off the floor to get her to look at him. If she does happen to look he will run away. And the other day he has started to pick the wall off I am exhausted, I feel like I'm doing something wrong as nobody in the history of the world seems to experience this. I don't think we are all ever in the same room for too long as I cannot cope. I don't know what to do anymore. Does anybody have any advice?

I understand you are completely worn out and I really feel for you I am wondering if because you feel at such a loss and he is getting away with this behaviour, he’s doing it all the more , because any attention, is attention, good or bad. Have you tried to do something with him and his siblings together? Maybe just reading them a story or something? I know it’s easy for me to sit here and suggest things when this isn’t happening to me, is there any chance that dad could spend some time taking him out at the weekend, even just for a walk or to get a burger, it would be interesting to know how he acts with his daddy.

Don’t turn down a critical to move forward and hard to get GP appointment, for a nursery one. Why would you do that? Accept the GP, reschedule nursery.

Second reading ‘The Explosive Child’ - Ross Green is excellent, I have found his advice helpful for my DS

Op I haven't read all comment from other posters here but my middle guy is similar. We are getting him assessed for PDA autism. This may not be what your son has but I can offer some strategies that help us.

Structure at home. Meals at same time every day in same place. Bedtime routine same every day at same time. Do particular activities at same time. Eg art or play on trampoline. He will know what to expect.

Punishment didn't work for us. We got a clear jar and placed table tennis balls in it every time he did something helpful good etc. However small. He chose what he would receive when jar was full.

Attend to other children if he hurts them ignore bad behaviour. I know it's very hard particularly when they wreck the house etc. When calm tell him you are glad he is calm but we don't hurt in this house. Remove him from room or remove yourself and other children from room. I have put our other kids in bathroom with me until he calmed down.

Let him know what to expect. This behaviour can be caused by anxiety and not knowing what to expect. Eg we are going to park now, we cannot push hit, we must take turns. If you do this we will get a ball in jar if not we will have to go home. Follow through. Behaviour will get worse for a bit but will improve when he knows you will follow through.

Most importantly read the explosive child by Ross Green.

Your kid may or may not have SN but traditional parenting is not working. You need new strategies. Also watch him and try to distract him before behaviour kicks in

I would abandon time out and punishment as they do not seem to have an effect.

I feel for you as it sounds such a hard situation to be in. You sound as if you are both mentally and physically exhausted, as I think anyone in your situation would be.

I haven't read all the replies and suggestions, but the ones I have sometimes sound as if they are in conflict. Be stricter, offer more rewards etc, but if put together in the right way might be the answer. Having a routine is easy to say, but not so easy to put in to practice in your situation. Without any help, as you can't see where to start.
Hopefully the meeting(s) you have set up will lead to help in some way.
Could you leave a video set up do that you can show the person you meet some examples of how he behaves at home? , especially if his behaviour is fine in nursery.

Would you be able to pay for a child minder, member of nursery staff, or other person experienced in childcare to come to the house to help you establish a routine and put it into place? It sounds impossible for you to do by yourself. Having someone there who is confident in what they say and do, will not only give you moral support, but they can teach you some techniques that your son may follow if they are also used in nursery. The children may also listen more to someone else.(mine does).
Good luck.

OP I think the key is trying to prevent as much behaviour as you can, which hopefully in turn, will make you feel less stressed and able to focus on trying to improve behaviour.

He hurts little one while she sleeps...they don’t share a room.

He opens the front door and runs out....lock the front door.

He hurts the others while you cook.....batch cook or cook while he isn’t there.

Mealtimes....have all the children in one place and supervise.

It looks like he is jealous of his younger siblings. He was an only child for two or three years and then he got two more siblings. Once someone gave us a second cat and the first one left the house and was sleeping in the bush. We had to give the cat back as we didn't ask for it in the first instance and then went to the old cat, apologised and only then he came back. Even animals have it.
I think you need to have an advise how to win your son's trust again. I know it sounds ridiculous but this is how it is. He feels insecure. He probably hates the siblings as he isn't the one anymore. You need to show him that you love everyone the same but for some time the younger once may require more time from me.
When my 2nd was born it took me lots of talking with my older one to assure him that they're loved equally.

Hi, apologies as I haven't read the whole thread. Didn't want to read and run. It sounds exhausting and heartbreaking. I hope you get a GP appointment soon. When surestart/homestart said they couldn't manage your son, did they offer alternative options - are they able to give you anything in writing to help the referral process (have no experience with them, so don't know if this is something that they do). Can they help with your other kids instead? It sounds like you've tried most things, but maybe there are a couple of other bits you can try that people have suggested, but I don't think there's a quick fix. You need some practical help, some sleep and a break. Whilst all kids want attention, some want it a lot more than others and will relentlessly push til they get it. 100 per cent attention just isn't possible in the real world in a family. It doesn't seem like he's responding to positive attention either. Let your GP know you're at breaking point. Huge hugs to you.

PinaColada yes I see what you mean, I think what I meant was that it’s not that she’s doing anything “wrong” but this is not a usual case, so ordinary good parenting doesn’t seem like it will be enough. I presumed seeking outside help through the GP would result in getting parenting strategies that go beyond things that usually work (naughty step, time off) but that she’s still need to implement those strategies as a parent, consistently, for things to change. Sometimes one of the hardest things is battling through these things not knowing if your strategies are even the right ones, or changing them regularly in the hope that one will work. Whereas if you get outside help, perhaps it can help give you the confidence and support to know the right way forward and also put it into practice

Do you think he may have adhd?

My son was/is like this with his sister.

He is dyspraxic and emotionally much younger than his years. I think that the jealously from the sibling rivalry is a massive thing for him and he hasn't been able to move past it/ emotionally process it. I also think that he doesn't understand about younger children and thinks they are the same as him/ subject to the same rules. He doesn't understand their unpredictability and their crying and screaming really stresses him out. If I'd realised how he would react I don't think I would have had a second child.

He's 9 now and still hits/bites/hurts her most days. But it is slowly getting better. They do sometimes play and spend time in each others company without fighting. But only this weekend they had an awful fight where they both bit each other so badly that they broke the skin.

I'm almost completely immune to it now. I generally let it wash over me. But strategies that we do as a habit in our house is to divide and conquer. We do generally split off into two factions to give the kids the time away from each other. It did get better too when they both went to school and got separate bedrooms. I'd split your rooms up asap.

Sympathy to you. Nothing works really, but you do just have to keep being consistent regardless. Don't give up whatever discipline system you have, be mindful it might take years to see results. and don't give up the positivity/love bombing too. You need support to have the patience to do all this so First Priority is factoring in time for you to recharge somehow.

If your husband works a lot, do you get time off?

I’m sure you are absolutely exhausted! And I really do feel for you.

The thing is OP I honestly don’t think you need a GP appointment.
You and your DH need a good course of parenting classes and to read as many self help books for difficult, jealous and acting out behaviour.

All of the things you have talked about although not normal are fairly common behaviours for young children that feel replaced, jealous and unloved.

I know it’s easy for me to say but if you want to change your son’s behaviour then honestly you and your DH are the only ones that can do that and you owe it to your son to make a change.

If you keep doing the same thing over and over when it’s clearly not working then you are going to get the same results, so it’s time to do things differently.

You need to get as much advice from as many different places as possible and put the advice into practice! Until you try for an extended period then you don’t know what will work for you so pick a few ideas and stick to them religiously.

You could start with everyone eats at the table, even if it has to be in shifts. Any crying, screaming, moaning is ignored you just keep putting the child back on the seat until dinner is finished then praise them for how well they did eating at the table like a grown up.
Could your Son not help you cook? It keeps him busy, gives him 1 on 1 time and makes him feel good if you praise him for all the good mixing etc he does?

I know it’s hard but to be brutally honest you decided to have three kids it’s now done to you to parent them, yes it’s shit when one acts up but the ‘it’s so hard and I can’t bothered to do x,y,z or why should I have to do x,y,z’ is not actually going to help anyone.

In saying all that you really do have my upmost sympathy.

The very first thing I would do is sort out the danger that your daughter is in by sharing a bedroom. He pushes on her stomach to wake her. What if he presses too hard, or decides to put his hand over her mouth and nose until she wakes? You can’t have this situation.

I would leave the 2yo in one bedroom alone, and move your son in with you. That means he’ll be on a roll mat on the floor I expect - but so be it. I think it’s important that he moves, as 1 child should not have a room to themselves when 4 people are in another room. Also, keeping his close means you’re not rejecting him for his behaviour.

Oh op, I feel for you. I first went to the GP about DD2 when she was 4. She STILL wasn't sleeping through at night, was slow to potty train and she had some concerning behaviour (headbutting wooden floors etc).

It took until she was 11 to get her diagnosed with ASD. I have been on endless parenting courses, regular ones, specialist ones and to them it's a way of seeing if a parenting issue is not helping ie dealing with consequences etc.

My DD snapped 9 pairs of her sisters glasses in a year when she was 18 months, she set fire to my kitchen by putting a book in the microwave (clambered over the stair gate) and was generally extremely difficult to parent. It took 6 months for her settle into nursery and consequently only had about a year of that before going to school.

At school she is extremely quiet, well behaved, polite and attentive. Not one teacher has anything but praise for her. At home she screams, slams doors, punches walls... all part of her meltdowns after bottling everything up all day at school.

Your DS needs to be assessed both at nursery and at home. Please keep pushing for him to be seen by a paediatrician or CAMHS (whichever route is best in your area). Be prepared to jump through hoops with parenting courses, ask if you can have a 1 to 1 session at home if you feel like taking him would be too much for you. They do do these for those who need it.

I feel for you and I don't think you are doing anything wrong. You sound utterly exhausted and I would hope your GP can offer you some sort of help or refer you elsewhere.

I can't have him in with me as I've got my youngest dd in there and he would do the same thing to her given the chance.
I've emailed ss to see if I can get any help, and emailed the nursery about upping his hours

He sounds like an extreme version of my older brother. My parents had two more children in quick succession (the first being me when he was 18 months old), and he never really recovered from it and went no contact with our whole family about 10 years ago with no explanation. I truly believe that some children are too delicate mentally to have siblings, or perhaps my otherwise lovely parents just inadvertently handled it very badly. I'm not saying this to scare you, but just so you really really push your GP for professional help and support for your family. If my parents had sought professional help things may have been different for my brother.

Hard as it is to hear... even when there are SEN issues and specific issues like jealousy, it doesn’t mean that there are no parenting strategies that need to be changed.

You are very resistant to enforcing a very normal and simply boundary of your 2yo sitting at the table to eat. So you’re creating a situation that is unsafe AND showing your son that you let children do what they want.

Whilst you are seeking help, reading books, making big changes... don’t wait to make the smaller, easier but really important changes like mealtimes.

Make your dinner preparation less complicated. You can make something like a pasta bake when he’s at nursery, then the only “cooking” is warming it in the oven, which doesn’t need supervision.

The single most important thing you should do this week though... next time their dad has the day off, he needs to take all 3 out and let you SLEEP, so you get refreshed to tackle this.

Op, I haven’t read all the thread but why are you in a two bed flat when there’s 5 of you? It’s conpletley unacceptable, your son must be so stressed with lack of space, as I’m sure you all are.

You need to move ASAP.

@strawberries I get you. Hopefully there will be advice out there or parenting courses etc.

So hard though OP, I thought I’d get loads of help with parenting. It doesn’t really happen that way. Try though.

However loads of the advice on this thread is really good on practical ways to parent a challenging child. I’m going to try some myself too!

It’s so worth it, that’s all I can keep saying. I’ve friends with challenging kids (very challenging) and for whatever reason could not put the time in or change their styles - and it’s got scarily worse. Two are now being physically attacked regularly themselves.

Some kids do just needs a whole other level. I actually recorded incidents, made my own behaviour plan, looked at loads from the internet. People think I’m a bit strange as I approach things very differently and carefully with my son, and I have an activity filled day as if I’m a school. Yet I tel, you it’s turned it around so much.

See these for behaviour plan templates
www.google.ie/search?q=behavior+plan+template&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-ie&client=safari

Going to read the thread and see what bits I can actually use, I need desperate help. I know

A brilliant thing to do - and brave. Try to see past the bits that hurt you and see that people genuinely are trying to help - you know there's a problem - and that's a massive first step, asking for help.

The batch cooking/prep when he's at nursery is a simple solution to locking him out of the kitchen - do you have a slow cooker? And get extra chairs (folding if space is an issue) and get sat round the table together.

When you say that you're barely all in the same room together, what are the dynamics of this? What is he doing while you are BF the smallest? Can you feed her under your arm in the rugby ball position to give you your arms back, and pop him on your knee to read or similar? That way everyone is 'safe' for a while?

What is his favourite toy/tv/food/activity? Try toclimb out of the negative spiral with simple little things to look forward to.

If you can’t keep your baby safe when you’re sleeping in the same room, it’s even more imperative that you don’t leave your toddler with him when you’re not there.

How old is your baby? Can she go in with the toddler yet?

There are multiple combinations but I’m trying to avoid the one that separates you and your husband, as I think it can be destructive to a relationship to sleep apart permanently.

OK, I am back...
As I said, this sounds like classic attention seeking though there may be more going on re. being unable to control behaviour.

So we went through a bit of this where DS couldn't walk past DD (2 1/2 year age gap) without pushing her/pulling her hair and he STILL does silly things (TBH some of them are not that silly and DD overreacts e.g. he growls at her or LOOKS AT HER FUNNY) because she just makes such a satisfying noise when he does.

We got this book:

www.amazon.co.uk/Calmer-Easier-Happier-Parenting-Revolutionary/dp/144472990X?tag=mumsnetforum-21

Get the first chapter free on Kindle but definitely get the whole book too.

The two techniques we used which helped a lot (and we need to remind ourselves to use them again) were Descriptive Praise (the whole crux of the book) and re-dos (which is used in a lot of other techniques too).

And the other thing that we use is the "baskets" or priority system - some things are red (top priority), some are yellow (ignore if possible) and some green (always ignore).

You can't deal with everything at once!

So:
Every time he's even NEAR his sister and not hurting her, you tell him how good he's being and describe what he's doing. He's sitting nicely, he's keeping his hands to himself, well done.
If he does push past/hurt her/throw something to get attention, ask him to try again to walk past her/how else can he get her to look in a nice way. Praise him for doing it properly (and don't tell him off/give him attention for doing it wrong).

Other priorities:
Get a table and chairs so you can all sit together. Probably not a priority to make him sit down, but praise him when he does. Maybe this can go in yellow.
Bedrooms - can he go on his own for the moment, and your middle child come in with you if there's no extra space? He is getting attention from her when he wakes her up (and probably from you when you tell him off). So waking anyone up just gets a boring "back in your room, it's not time to get up".
Might be worth getting a play pen for your middle child, so she can escape/he can play with one of you.

He needs 1:1 (all your children do) - you can spend time with the younger ones while he's in nursery thankfully - and he may have to have it at the weekend but there's also story time after the younger ones are in bed etc.

Breaking things that are his - his problem - just ignore and say "oh dear".
Same with picking at the wall etc. Nobody is getting hurt and you have other things to deal with.

We do use a form of time out but not with DS on his own (he'd never stay where we put him for a start!), he is in his room and we are either there being boring or just outside. We ONLY do this is he is being unsafe (throwing/hitting) and it's actually only recent; we saw improvements with the other behaviours before this and it's only as he's got a bit older and more "aware" of what he can do to get attention, that we've had to use it.

She's 7 month and wakes 5 times a night, so I can't really risk her going in with her sister as she will just wake her or I'll wake older dd by going in to get her.
I've taken my eldest dd cot downstairs now so my partner will have to sleep downstairs with her

Could you and the girls share and he share with your husband? It really is very dangerous for her and will be affecting her emotionally and psychologically. She needs to feel safe while she sleeps.

I think you need to lower your expectations around other stuff and really focus on the children’s behaviour.

So if you can’t manage to cook without bad things happening, they eat pasta leftover from the day before with ham/cheese/sweet corn
If your son will run off in a Burger King you don’t go. You can’t just let him play with the door.
Batten down the hatches and tighten up on the important stuff.